Weeping between the porch and the Altar

truth publications ^ | Leonard Ravenhill

[George W. Bush]

I rather liked the article despite some of its charismatic-sounding descriptions.

Where I don't especially agree is the emphasis on revival. It seems to me that revival, like the miserably failed Graham crusades, have become an obsession in the modern church. The revival brings in the revival preacher and the revival organizations and contributes to the general obsession with megachurch building. So much of the most visible workings of modern churches come down to mass media presence, fundraising, church buildings, attendance in the thousands, writing/selling books.

God may take some very unusual action to convert men and bring them to Christ. But I'm not certain we should expect miraculous events of Biblical proportions to prove to us that a particular church is a true church of Christ. In the end, it's much more about our faith and God's direction in our lives than it is about where we gather on Sunday mornings.

The notion that we should expect our churches to resemble those of the church of Acts seems a little strange. I believe that God took a special action there, just as He took a special action to convert Paul and to intervene at Pentecost, because the ancient churches could not be allowed to fail. The Lord's will was accomplished in starting his church. The Bible does not teach us that the Lord's extraordinary actions in those times are something we should expect today.

If we assume that we attend a false church because it does not match the accounts of the ancient churches, then it seems we are asking for problems. This is the general problem with the Pentecostal/charistmatic churches. They have an anachronistic view of the Church age, one which demands a peculiar reading of the Gospels unknown until about 1900.

When these charismatics can raise the dead and walk through a hospital healing and can speak in unknown tongues and convert people, then we should take them more seriously. Until they can do this, then these claims are very suspect and should be considered unscriptural.

I'd also point out that if you believe we are in the end times, then there will be no revival, only a falling away from scriptural truth. This will happen within the churches. The Bible tells us that the Lord will not come again without there first being a great falling away. It says that the Gospel will be preached to the entire world and it says there will be a great falling away. Then Christ will return. Where exactly do people get this ubiquitous notion that revival will precede Christ's return? Does anyone know how this apparently unscriptural notion gained such currency in modern Christian thought?

Given what we see of the modern churches, many of them very doctrinally sound until the last few decades, doesn't it seem that we are much more in the falling away period, a time when men will not endure sound teaching or biblical doctrine, when the church will be led by the apostate and the reprobate?

I guess I see things moving that way and I don't expect revival. It's very difficult to see how revival would come to America or Europe. I'm not saying that anyone should stop preaching. But to expect or demand revival as an indication that God is out there or is blessing a church or a Christian seems to me to be wrongheaded.

If we are in the end times, there will be a certain revival. It will be the revival of the churches of the Antichrist, as they move into global unity to serve his satanic purpose. The unsaved will flock to the former Christian churches who have turned to follow the Antichrist. That seems to me to be the revival anyone is going to see in America. And there are plenty of false preachers and false churches just waiting to welcome them into "fellowship".

Even after the events of 9/11, does it seem to have drawn many apostate churches back to the teachings of the Word?

So, which of the two scenarios I'm outlining seems more scriptural and more in line with what any of us can observe? Are we on the verge of some great revival? Or is it the falling away?

Sorry to be so long but I thought some of you might like to discuss this revival issue.

[RaceBannon]

Excellent article

[George W. Bush]

I thought you two might like this thread too.

[ArGee]

We have to make up our minds that preaching is not a profession, it's a passion.

Actually, it's a calling.

Shalom.

[RnMomof7]

If we are in the end times, there will be a certain revival. It will be the revival of the churches of the Antichrist, as they move into global unity to serve his satanic purpose. The unsaved will flock to the former Christian churches who have turned to follow the Antichrist. That seems to me to be the revival anyone is going to see in America. And there are plenty of false preachers and false churches just waiting to welcome them into "fellowship".

Bingo on that me thinks GW..I believe this is the time of the chaff being seperated from the wheat.....So many apostate churches...one can not number them..

[jude24]

So many apostate churches...one can not number them..

So many apostates in the churches....

I think we are likely drawing near the end-times, but one of course cannot be certain. Paul thought he was living in the end-times ("those of US that remain").

I, too, have long wondered where this misguided optimism regarding end-times revival came from.

Even where the church is doctrinally sound, there are a lot of people who just come to church because it's a "good thing to do," perhaps because it instills morality into their kids. But that isnt enough-- each individual needs to personally acknoweldge Jesus Christ as the Lord God and submit to His authority. I wonder how many who darken the doorstep of the church are truly saved.

Well, its our jobs in the churches to be active, vocal, and try to keep them Biblically sound. I thank God that I'm involved with churches both here at school and at home where the Word of God and sound doctrine are unapologetically presented. That's the exception, not the rule. Each of us has been given diverse spiritual gifts, and we must use them to the Glory of God in our local churches. (I'm not quite sure what mine are yet, but I am beginning to think I have an idea.)

[RnMomof7]

We agree....but you are not surprised at that are ya??">)

It is good to be in a sound church jude,there are so many that are deceived!

God bless you..

[CCWoody]

When these charismatics can raise the dead and walk through a hospital healing and can speak in unknown tongues and convert people, then we should take them more seriously. Until they can do this, then these claims are very suspect and should be considered unscriptural.

HAHAHAHAHA!

If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded though one rose from the dead.

Guess what, it happens all the time! I've seen some if it with my own eyes. I myself was sent from the highway on a motorcycle at 60mph. The Holy Spirit preserved my life and healed me and I was able to walk away from that place ( and would have done so if I had wanted to). You know because I have given you this testominy in private!

[CCWoody]

Actually, it is both a passion and a calling! The words of Paul:

Paul, an apostle (not of men, neither by man, but by Jesus Christ and God the Father, who raised Him from the dead),...

Therefore, my dearly beloved and longedfor brethren, my joy and crown, so stand fast in the Lord, my dearly beloved.

It would be meaningless to be Christ's own and not have passion. We would be like this prophecy in Isaiah:

Therefore the Lord said: "Inasmuch as this people draw near Me with their mouth and with their lips do honor Me, but have removed their heart far from Me, and their fear toward Me is taught by the precept of men, therefore, behold, I will proceed to do a marvelous work among this people, even a marvelous work and a wonder; for the wisdom of their wise men shall perish, and the understanding of their prudent men shall be hid."

Fulfilled and spoken of by Christ:

Then the Pharisees and scribes asked Him, "Why walk not thy disciples according to the tradition of the elders, but eat bread with unwashed hands?" He answered and said unto them, "Well hath Isaiah prophesied of you hypocrites, as it is written: `This people honoreth Me with their lips, but their heart is far from Me. Therefore, in vain do they worship Me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.' For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold to the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups, and many other like things ye do."

Guess what, if you do not have passion the service offered is in vain and it specifically denies a commandment of God. It is a foul stench in the nostrils of God!

[CCWoody]

I think we are likely drawing near the end-times, but one of course cannot be certain. Paul thought he was living in the end-times ("those of US that remain").

I'm not sure exactly what you mean, but the last days began at Pentecost.

[jude24]

I'm not sure exactly what you mean, but the last days began at Pentecost.

The "last days" began at Pentecost in that the Church age began there. The "last days" are generally understood to include the timeframe leading to the Rapture, Tribulation, and 2nd Coming (in whatever order they come).

Of course, a day being as a thousand years to our Sovreign God who is not bound to his creation of time, the end times did indeed stretch back to Pentecost. Point taken.

[George W. Bush]

Guess what, it happens all the time!

Wen was that last time a small number of charismatics preached in a dozen or more unknown tongues and were perfectly understood by 3000 who were converted by that preaching.

You've seen that?

[CCWoody]

the Rapture, Tribulation, and 2nd Coming (in whatever order they come).

hehehe! You must be a Pan-Mil. guy. Jerry_M knows the name for what I believe, but I couldn't tell you myself.

[jude24]

no, i'm firmly pre-trib, but that's ancillary to the point I was trying to make.

[RnMomof7]

mid trib myself..hope you are right and I am wrong..but I think it may already be in effect..we will see jude!

[185JHP]

Thanks for the ping and your insightful post. I believe the last church will be the Laodicean church - and apostasy isn't creeping, it's galloping. I also believe we'll see another spiritual awakening - I believe Christians in the U.S. will assist in the building of the 3rd Temple - although I know tht at a point in time after it is built, yhat bad boy will move in and take over. I'm glad we're living in such interesting times, and that some of us are so safe. FReegards

[ArGee]

Actually, it is both a passion and a calling!

I will not argue. To me it is an ever increasing circle. Passion is generally included within calling, but calling is not included within passion. I have known men with a passion for something who attempted it without a calling. The result, as they say, was not pretty.

On the other hand, it is possible to respond to a calling without a passion for the work because of your passion for G-d.

Shalom.

[RnMomof7]

BTTL