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Stanford scientist, after decades of study, concludes: We don't have free will
MSN ^ | 10/17/2023 | Story by Corinne Purtill

Posted on 04/02/2024 5:31:02 AM PDT by Lazamataz

Before epilepsy was understood to be a neurological condition, people believed it was caused by the moon, or by phlegm in the brain. They condemned seizures as evidence of witchcraft or demonic possession, and killed or castrated sufferers to prevent them from passing tainted blood to a new generation.

Today we know epilepsy is a disease. It’s accepted that a person who causes a fatal traffic accident while in the grip of a seizure should not be charged with murder.

That’s good, says Stanford University neurobiologist Robert Sapolsky. That’s progress. But there's still a long way to go.

After more than 40 years studying humans and other primates, Sapolsky has reached the conclusion that all human behavior is as far beyond our conscious control as the convulsions of a seizure, the division of cells or the beating of our hearts.

This means accepting that a man who shoots into a crowd has no more control over his fate than the victims who happen to be in the wrong place at the wrong time. It means treating drunk drivers who barrel into pedestrians just like drivers who suffer a sudden heart attack and veer out of their lane.

“The world is really screwed up and made much, much more unfair by the fact that we reward people and punish people for things they have no control over,” Sapolsky said. “We’ve got no free will. Stop attributing stuff to us that isn’t there.”

Sapolsky, a MacArthur “genius” grant winner, is aware that this is an out-there position. Most neuroscientists believe humans have at least some degree of free will. So do most philosophers and the general population. Free will is essential to how we see ourselves, fueling the satisfaction of achievement or the shame of failing to do the right thing.

(Excerpt) Read more at msn.com ...


TOPICS: Philosophy
KEYWORDS: freewill; frpottymouths; noclassonfr; philosophynotscience; pseudoscience; robertsapolsky; stanford; watchyourmouth; wtf
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To: Lazamataz

Sounds like he’s an apologist for evil... a lowlife progressive with fancy words and title.

Yawn.


41 posted on 04/02/2024 6:37:55 AM PDT by GOPJ
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To: Lazamataz
people have no free will

then, he had no choice but to say that, even if it is not true

42 posted on 04/02/2024 6:38:00 AM PDT by mjp (pro-freedom & pro-wealth $)
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To: Lazamataz

If people have no control over their behavior, why do Dems propagandize so much? Why do companies advertise? Why do we pass laws? Is it just a coincidence that if you tax something, you get less of it? The idea that we never have any control over our behavior is ridiculous and just an excuse for bad behavior.


43 posted on 04/02/2024 6:38:10 AM PDT by beef (The pendulum will not swing back. It will snap back. Hard.)
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To: Lazamataz

“This means accepting that a man who shoots into a crowd has no more control over his fate than the victims who happen to be in the wrong place at the wrong time. It means treating drunk drivers who barrel into pedestrians just like drivers who suffer a sudden heart attack and veer out of their lane.”

If that nonsense is accepted, then there are no crimes and society would quickly degenerate into complete chaos.

We all have free will in different degrees, but all mentally competent people have free will regarding their personal conduct.


44 posted on 04/02/2024 6:41:56 AM PDT by odawg
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To: Lazamataz

The re$ult of mo$t $tudie$ ... more $tudie$ needed.


45 posted on 04/02/2024 6:42:59 AM PDT by antidemoncrat
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To: Lazamataz

It’s an ancient argument. The fascinating thing is that philosophical determinism is so durable despite being ultimately incoherent. If we deny choice, we deny our own cognition. If we deny our own cognition, well ... within two or three more steps down the breadcrumb trail, we end up denying mind, consciousness, meaning, purpose, the validity of aesthetic and moral judgments, any coherent code of ethics, and the status of reason itself.

Self-proclaimed determinists do not in fact behave as if they actually believed what they are saying. They claim to be making a general statement as a theoretical proposition, but in actuality they invoke the principle on an ad hoc, situational basis. It is a wild card that they pull from the bottom of the deck to sandbag an opponent in a debate about whatever; it may be invoked simply as a way of changing the subject, especially on moral questions, when the other side appears to be carrying the day.

As with all such arguments, the underlying cheat is that the people making such arguments think they can get away with asymmetrical warfare. They assume that they can use the wild card but no one else can. At some point, they will force others into enough of a corner that the gloves will come off and turnabout becomes fair play.

The professor in this story prattles nonsense while operating in a profession and setting in which everyone else plays be the rules and no one tests the limits. He himself appears to live by rational rules in his real life and confines the insanity to books and lectures. That would end the moment a student walked up and punched him in the nose, or chronically disrupted his classroom, or torched his house, and claimed immunity from punishment on the determinist principle. A theory that collapses at the first real test is not much of a theory.


46 posted on 04/02/2024 6:48:43 AM PDT by sphinx
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To: scouter

You’ve just explained the reason for this fool’s paper. Thanks.


47 posted on 04/02/2024 6:52:19 AM PDT by NetAddicted (MAGA2024)
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To: Lazamataz
So behavior is controlled 100% by chemical or biological factors?

Pfizer to the rescue in 3..2..1..

48 posted on 04/02/2024 6:52:30 AM PDT by ZOOKER (Until further notice the /s is implied...)
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To: Lazamataz

Gotta justice all the feral rioting somehow...


49 posted on 04/02/2024 6:56:00 AM PDT by Chode (there is no fall back position, there's no rally point, there is no LZ... we're on our own. #FJB)
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To: Pontiac

Excellent point.


50 posted on 04/02/2024 6:59:49 AM PDT by Lazamataz (You are so screwed. You are so screwed. You are so screwed. You are so screwed. You are so screwed.)
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To: Lazamataz

My will wasn’t free, it cost me big bucks! But, at least the in-laws won’t get any.


51 posted on 04/02/2024 7:01:00 AM PDT by mistfree (Fear Destroys Freedom)
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To: sphinx

P.S. I should have added that from time to time we do indeed encounter people who appear to have no control over their actions. We regard them as insane. The very idea of sanity assumes a mind and consciousness that can structure thought and behavior.

We also recognize that our choices can be variously conditioned. Yes, it makes a difference if we are hungry, exhausted, fearful, or in imminent danger. It makes a difference if we have time to think or are overtaken by a cascading chaos of unexpected events.

But even in extreme cases, we retain a capacity for choice — and therefore cannot escape responsibility for our choices. Even when the secret policeman points a gun to our heads, or when the torturer is inflicting agonies, we do not have to betray the hiding place of the Jew, or the priest, or the political dissident, or even JK Rowling when they come after her for saying that “woman” has a real, objective meaning.

We recognize that some people break under threats and torture. We will often make allowances for people who break under extreme duress. But we still recognize that a choice is being made, because not everyone breaks. Not everyone is a hero, but most of us recognize that heroes exist. Determinists deny this — usually, I think, because they are concerned mainly with rationalizing their own bad, perhaps cowardly, usually selfish choices.


52 posted on 04/02/2024 7:01:51 AM PDT by sphinx
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To: Lazamataz

Actions have consequences.
Decisions lead to actions.
This guy does NOT have science on his side.
But he is probably a hell of a talker. Garrulous might be the word.
Peeps like him usually have lived a very insulated and even pampered life.


53 posted on 04/02/2024 7:10:53 AM PDT by Honest Nigerian
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To: Lazamataz

Well, Einstein agreed with this. He famously said that he knew a murderer had no choice in killing, but still preferred not to have dinner with the killer.

According to the author, we should not punish wrongdoers, and we should not reward hard workers. None of it was their “choice”.

So we should let society disintegrate, and then absolve ourselves of responsibility.

But how is it we can make that choice?

It’s very dangerous to disagree with Einstein, but I do. Certainly I disagree with this author.

He’s right that complex factors influence behavior. He’s wrong if he believes individuals and societies cannot really make choices.

I think.


54 posted on 04/02/2024 7:21:21 AM PDT by Williams (Stop Tolerating The Intolerant)
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To: Lazamataz
There are a number of lectures he gave at Stanford some years ago that can be found on youtube. I've watched some of them and I find him to be a fascinating guy. Even in those lectures (10+ years ago) he was basically suggesting that we're just lowland gorillas that somehow managed to design the 747.

But despite that fact he is very interesting. Anyone with some free time should check him out...despite what he might believe.

55 posted on 04/02/2024 7:26:02 AM PDT by Gay State Conservative (Proudly Clinging To My Guns And My Religion)
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To: OttawaFreeper

May I suggest you use your night stick,officer?


56 posted on 04/02/2024 7:26:53 AM PDT by Gay State Conservative (Proudly Clinging To My Guns And My Religion)
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To: mistfree

Ha!


57 posted on 04/02/2024 7:29:58 AM PDT by Lazamataz (We are so screwed. We are so screwed. We are so screwed. We are so screwed. We are so screwed. We ar)
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To: Lazamataz

Does that apply to his research? Maybe the Devil guided it.


58 posted on 04/02/2024 7:33:01 AM PDT by Socon-Econ (adi)
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To: Gay State Conservative
There are a number of lectures he gave at Stanford some years ago that can be found on youtube. I've watched some of them and I find him to be a fascinating guy. Even in those lectures (10+ years ago) he was basically suggesting that we're just lowland gorillas that somehow managed to design the 747. But despite that fact he is very interesting. Anyone with some free time should check him out...despite what he might believe.

He may well be very interesting, but I have found that the most dangerous lies are those that are mixed in with truths.

On that basis, I won't be pursuing his offerings.

59 posted on 04/02/2024 7:38:31 AM PDT by Lazamataz (We are so screwed. We are so screwed. We are so screwed. We are so screwed. We are so screwed. We ar)
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To: scouter

he knows that we do have free will, because if we didn’t, we wouldn’t be able to stop doing that.
*********************
Very astute observation. You win the interweb for the day.


60 posted on 04/02/2024 7:43:55 AM PDT by sunny bonobo
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