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To: Yardstick
Is your experience with lithium batteries in vehicles? I'm not sure phones, laptops, and cordless drills are good predictors of how the batteries in EVs will behave as they age, even though they all contain lithium. It could be that they are, but it wouldn't surprise me if they're not.

I have had experiences and training with various types of lithium-based batteries in various types of applications including vehicles. Interestingly enough my first experiences lithium-ion cells were with 18650 type cells which are the same type used in many electrical vehicles including Tesla model S and X cars since 2013. As one of the leaders of a Hazmat Team I took classes on the intricacies and construction methods ued in various types of hybrid and electric vehicle batteries.

Although some laptops used to rely on 18650 type cells and some cordless tools as well... cell phones, laptops and most other consumer electronics have been relying on lithium polymer batteries for years now.

You are correct that the type of usage and the application affects the expected life of the batteries. Not all 18650 cells are created equal. 18650 is a battery size and not an indicator of the exact chemistry being used. Some have higher energy density and are better quality. Some are designed for higher charge and discharge rates. Some are designed to survive a higher number of charge/discharge cycles. Some are capable handling deeper discharge voltages and able to handle higher levels of charging voltages without as much damage. But the basics of these types of cells are similar as is there expected behavior as they reach the end of their useful lives and also the factors that cause them to fail.

When they have faded to 50% capacity they are likely to quit working completely within a short period of time. Imagining that they can be repurposed as they fade is not realistic. Some batteries can be repaired if they are relatively new and the bad cells can be located and replaced, but old batteries that are nearing the end of their lives are not typically repairable.

Many of us have been familiar with other types of rechargeable cells and also lead acid batteries for many decades. They do not behave the same as lithium based batteries and they are not nearly as robust.

As far as the huge number of electric vehicles that have been abandoned in China... there are various reasons for that. There have been a lot of improvements made to electric vehicles since the Chinese government first began incentivizing them. As the batteries began going bad, in most cases the cost of replacing them was prohibitive because newer vehicles with far better features, range, and utility were a better deal especially with ongoing government subsidies. The same type of issues and others are likely to occur here.

Normal gasoline and diesel powered vehicles have had few substantial improvements in decades. Both of the vehicles that my wife and I own are over 20 years old, still look fine and have approximately 99% of the utility of newer vehicles. They might get slightly worse fuel economy, but at the price people currently pay for new vehicles even if gasoline cost $10 a gallon the improved fuel economy would still take decades to actually save any money.

Electric vehicles are a completely different animal. Just like in China, improvements are being made constantly. The batteries are very expensive, and the vehicles depreciate much more quickly than normal vehicles. That translates into the same situation happening here.

Used Tesla blown up in Finland when the new owner discovered a replacement battery would cost far more than he paid for the car.

26 posted on 10/27/2023 8:43:55 PM PDT by fireman15 (Irritating people are the grit from which we fashion our pearl. I provide the grit. You're Welcome.)
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To: fireman15

Thanks for the reply. I did some poking around and the answer to “what is the lifespan of an EV battery?” seems to be that we don’t really know yet. But so far they seem to be exceeding expectations, and the pattern doesn’t seem to be that they fail suddenly and become unusable. Instead there seems to be a falloff early on which then flattens into a plateau with a slow gradual decline. Most of the EVs out there are currently on this plateau.

Here’s a site with some interesting data:

https://www.recurrentauto.com/research/how-long-do-ev-batteries-last

It’s by an organization that tracks battery data of its members’ EVs. They currently have over 15,000 members they are collecting data on. The linked page has plots showing driving range versus odometer miles where you can see the falloff trends in various EV makes and models.

Interesting Autoweek article on battery life:

https://www.autoweek.com/news/a39713122/predicting-how-much-range-ev-batteries-lose-over-time/

Tesla uses four kinds of Li batteries. The 18650 you mentioned was used in early models and is still used in the luxury Model S. The more common Model 3 is now two generations beyond the 18650 (which is an NCA type...nickel cobalt aluminum). Recently they’ve started using a new type of battery (LFP...lithium iron phosphate) that doesn’t use either cobalt or nickel and is much easier to source. It’s also easier to recycle and much less prone to thermal runaway.

https://insideevs.com/news/587455/batteries-tesla-using-electric-cars/

This article says LFP is intrinsically incapable of self-induced thermal runaway:

https://www.powertechsystems.eu/home/tech-corner/safety-of-lithium-ion-batteries/

On eBay it looks like 2013 Tesla model S’s sell for between $10K and $20K depending on condition:

https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_nkw=tesla+model+s&_sacat=0&Model%2520Year=2013&_dcat=180042&rt=nc&LH_Sold=1&LH_Complete=1

Based on what I’m reading, the price of replacement batteries has been falling and there’s an active market for refurbished and used batteries. Replacing an S battery looks like $20K on the high end for a brand new battery, but I’m also seeing people paying a third of that for a refurb battery with a warranty.

A factor in extending EV battery lifespan, and part of what separates EV batteries from Li batteries used in other applications, is apparently the active cooling that’s designed into EV battery packs. Apparently Li batteries are especially prone to degradation when their temperature isn’t controlled.


29 posted on 10/28/2023 12:13:17 PM PDT by Yardstick
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