Posted on 04/08/2022 9:23:32 PM PDT by Zhang Fei
Nobody who has looked at it and who is honest would deny that.
***Then you accuse the country you are trying to defend of being dishonest. Russia looked at it and signed that sovereignty away to the people who had obvious sovereignty at that time.
Hell, Crimea was never part of Ukraine. It was Russian for centuries.
***It was Russia that signed it away in the Budapest Memorandum.
Kruschov just gave Crimea to Ukraine in the 50s. It didn’t matter then because they were all part of the Soviet Union. It did matter when the Soviet Union broke apart.
***Then it mattered when Russia signed their sovereignty away. Most people simply didn’t care, not even Russia nor Vlad the Imploder, until oil & gas reserves were found there and allofasudden Vlad’s makin’ bullshiite noises & invades 2 years later.
Kevmo:***Uhh, that’s in Georgia, not Ukraine. At least per Wikipedia. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ossetia#/media/File:Caucasus-ethnic_en.svg
Shiitebird: Yes, I’m aware of that.
***Then you’re aware that it is completely irrelevant.
This was another example of the exact same thing. There’s no oil and gas there. There is a now minority ethnic Russian population there that was oppressed by the national government and Russia sided with their countrymen and invaded - exact same dynamic.
***Well now, that’s a bit disingenuous. Because Russia also invaded the areas where there were very few of their countrymen, and engaged in ethnic cleansing in such areas. The population of Abkhazia was reduced from 525,000 to 216,000 after an ethnic cleansing of Georgians, the single largest ethnic group in the region.
https://ukrainianweek.com/Politics/107814
If there is oil and gas in Crimea, I’m not aware of it.
***Then look at the map provided in that FR thread.
https://freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/4050958/posts
https://64.media.tumblr.com/b0de897e064daa66864fb2d3f06eef80/tumblr_n5k0yfhJmy1rasnq9o1_1280.png
Yet Russia annexed Crimea 8 years ago. I think this has a lot more to do with the people inhabiting those areas than the oil and gas in the Donbass.
***Of course you think that way, because you are a Putinista.
Russia already has a crap ton of oil and gas.
***And they want more. The Russians weren’t even interested in western Ukraine until oil was found there. Their interest is simply in raping that country. Russia gets 60% of its revenues from oil exports. Europe gets 40% of their oil from Russia.
In 2012 massive oil and gas reserves were found in Crimea. Crimea signed a $10 billion exploration contracts with Shell and Chevron to develop the new found oil and gas fields. These oil and gas products would compete in Europe with Russia’s oil and gas, reducing Russia’s oil revenues, which we recall amount to 60% of their total GDP. Russia annexed Crimea in 2014, cancelling the contracts with Shell and Chevron.
But Ukraine still had massive reserves in, you guessed it, Donetsk and Luhansk, and other areas East of the Dnieper River. In 2019, Energy Secretary Rick Perry visited Ukraine, and soon after Ukraine awarded exploration contracts to a consortium of U.S. oil companies. Again, these oil reserves would compete in Europe with Russian oil, so Putin is invading Ukraine to shut down this latest attempt to extract Ukrainian oil and sell it in competition with Russian oil.
This explanation makes more sense to me than the “Putin feels threatened by NATO expansion” excuses for the invasion.
https://freerepublic.com/focus/f-chat/4044221/posts?page=1#1
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-CmdSzVFSKc
If the Ukes allow some small region in the west to be its own republic, but the OIL belongs to Ukraine, do ya think Pootypoot would allow that? Nope.
Kevmo: ***Pretty much the same exact justifications that Hitler used except it was Germany & Sudetenland. It’s bullshiite. It’s pushing that region to start WW3 just like appeasement of Hitler over Sudetenland led to WW2.
Shiitebird: Had it not been Hitler....had it been a sane German nationalist instead, it would have been entirely reasonable for Germany to object to the oppression of 3 million ethnic Germans in the Sudetenland - which they had inhabited for centuries and centuries - being put in a Czech/Slovak state without their consent.
***Congrats, you’re the first Putinista to actually address Sudetenland. It’s a shallow justification but at least you tried. At the time, Hitler appeared to the world to be like what you said, a ‘sane’ German nationalist. That’s okay with me in terms of Ukraine, which is why I propose at the bottom of the blurb, “If the Ukes allow some small region in the west to be its own republic, but the OIL belongs to Ukraine, do ya think Pootypoot would allow that? Nope.” Besides, the difference between Sudetenland Germans “being put in” another sovereignty “without their consent” and Ukrainian Russians is that it didn’t happen as a result of war, it was all peacetime. The troubles didn’t start until after the oil & gas were discovered.
Letting the people choose is democratic, just, and would remove a cause of conflict between countries.
***There is some truth to that. For instance, I think the same thing should happen to the largest un-nationed people group, the Kurds. But it is disingenuous to hang this war on ethnographic stuff when much of that is driven by colonization, military hegemony, discovery of oil & gas resources, and other factors. If Putin really wanted to make this war about ethnography then he could just dismiss any claims for the resources.
Wilson violated some of his own 14 points (subject nationalities, self determination of peoples) in backing the inclusion of the Sudetenland in a newly created Czech/Slovak state.
***Yeah, well... that doesn’t sound right. I don’t remember Wilson having much to do with Sudetenland because he was a WW1 guy and already gone from the presidency.
Kevmo:***Not a valid reason to invade, not by a long shot.
Shiitebird: That’s what started it.
***No, that’s what Pootypoot hung his hat on. The fact that he chose such a shallow justification and that you’re defending it shows that you are simply a Putinista.
Then the locals objected. Then Kiev called in the Nazi Azov Battalion to put them down.
***All this stuff is just extraneous bullshiite.
Then the locals fought back. Then the government in Kiev ignored the signed Minsk Agreement
***By focusing on the minsk bullshiite instead of the Budapest Agreement, you show your true colors. Because the minsk stuff would never have happened if Russia had honored the Budapest agreement as well as the Ukes did.
they made to grant local autonomy to the two regions and proceeded to shell them over and over and over again killing upwards of 14,000 people there since 2015.
***None of those people would have died if Russia had kept to the Budapest Agreement.
Then the government in Kiev massed troops on the border prepared to launch an offensive into the Donbas.
***Simple, straightforward, Putinist Propaganda.
Then Russia - once again backing the ethnic Russians there - invaded.
***You got it bad. Putinist. Keep puffin.
I doubt anyone else is reading your garbage, so I think I’ll just treat you like the Putinist troll that you are. Time to start ignoring you.
then you accuse the country you are trying to defend of being dishonest. Ukraine signed the Minsk agreement granting autonomy to the Donbas - then they broke the treaty and killed thousands of people. We can keep going round and round about this as many times as you want.
***It was Russia that signed it away in the Budapest Memorandum.
It was Ukraine that started making Russians 2nd class citizens in Ukraine. The people in the Crimea voted overwhelmingly to join Russia.
***Then it mattered when Russia signed their sovereignty away. Most people simply didn’t care, not even Russia nor Vlad the Imploder, until oil & gas reserves were found there and allofasudden Vlad’s makin’ bullshiite noises & invades 2 years later.
Then the Crimeans voted to secede from Ukraine and join Russia. All of this happened only AFTER the corruption and the color revolutions in Ukraine and then the Kiev government making Russians in Ukraine 2nd class citizens - then attacking them when they demanded autonomy as a result.
***Then you’re aware that it is completely irrelevant.
No, its directly relevant. Its an analogous situation.
***Well now, that’s a bit disingenuous. Because Russia also invaded the areas where there were very few of their countrymen, and engaged in ethnic cleansing in such areas. The population of Abkhazia was reduced from 525,000 to 216,000 after an ethnic cleansing of Georgians, the single largest ethnic group in the region. https://ukrainianweek.com/Politics/107814
Talk about disingenous! It was not Russia which ethnically cleansed Georgians from Abkhazia. This happened in the 1990s and was done by local Abkhaz separatists along with multiple other minorities in the area including Russians but also including Armenians and Greeks.
***Then look at the map provided in that FR thread. https://freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/4050958/posts https://64.media.tumblr.com/b0de897e064daa66864fb2d3f06eef80/tumblr_n5k0yfhJmy1rasnq9o1_1280.png
I was unaware. I've owned up to it.
***Of course you think that way, because you are a Putinista.
Of course you don't because you're a Soros stooge.
***And they want more. The Russians weren’t even interested in western Ukraine until oil was found there. Their interest is simply in raping that country. Russia gets 60% of its revenues from oil exports. Europe gets 40% of their oil from Russia.
Western Ukraine? Russia hasn't expressed any interest in Western Ukraine. The areas Russia has occupied correspond to areas with majority ethnic Russian populations. That does not include Western Ukraine.
In 2012 massive oil and gas reserves were found in Crimea. Crimea signed a $10 billion exploration contracts with Shell and Chevron to develop the new found oil and gas fields. These oil and gas products would compete in Europe with Russia’s oil and gas, reducing Russia’s oil revenues, which we recall amount to 60% of their total GDP. Russia annexed Crimea in 2014, cancelling the contracts with Shell and Chevron.
and Crimea has a majority ethnic Russian population which voted overwhelmingly to join Russia.
But Ukraine still had massive reserves in, you guessed it, Donetsk and Luhansk, and other areas East of the Dnieper River. In 2019, Energy Secretary Rick Perry visited Ukraine, and soon after Ukraine awarded exploration contracts to a consortium of U.S. oil companies. Again, these oil reserves would compete in Europe with Russian oil, so Putin is invading Ukraine to shut down this latest attempt to extract Ukrainian oil and sell it in competition with Russian oil.
Donetsk and Luhansk have - you guessed it - majority ethnic Russian populations. Populations which were promised autonomy by the Kiev government in the Minsk Agreement after the Kiev government tried to oppress them. The Kiev government then promptly broke its promise and shelled them thousands of times over the last few years killing thousands of them. This is all an attempt by the government in Kiev - installed thanks to Globalist Deep State warmongers like Victoria Nuland - to violently crush the locals in that area so that it can get its hands on those resources. The oil and gas is what Kiev is after. It hates the people there and wants to ethnically cleanse or murder them.
This explanation makes more sense to me than the “Putin feels threatened by NATO expansion” excuses for the invasion. If the Ukes allow some small region in the west to be its own republic, but the OIL belongs to Ukraine, do ya think Pootypoot would allow that? Nope.
You're getting West and East mixed up. The Donbas is in the East. The explanation that Kiev wants the resources but hates the people living there and would happily ethnically cleanse or murder them - witness its use of the openly Nazi Azov Battalion - makes more sense. You keep trying to make this about Putin. What about what the local people want? They were first oppressed by the government in Kiev. Then that government promised them autonomy when they fought back. Then Kiev promptly broke that signed agreement and has been trying to crush them ever since.
More dog vomit argumentation from you. Yup, it’s time to stop feeding the troll. Buh bye.
You’re just a troll.
I got as far as Arab Allies.
I should equally congratulate you on being the first Soros puppet globalist to acknowledge that people should have a say in who governs them. It was the basis of the American War of Independence, but globalists hate any decentralization of power so most try desperately not to acknowledge to an American audience that other people are only asserting the exact same right and doing the exact same thing the Founding Fathers did.
Why should the locals have to give up their resources to somebody else? The land they inhabit belongs to them. A border being drawn as a result of war makes it no more legitimate. The people living in the Eastern parts of Ukraine did not start being oppressed by the government in Kiev until after the Deep State backed color revolutions in the early 2000s.
***There is some truth to that. For instance, I think the same thing should happen to the largest un-nationed people group, the Kurds. But it is disingenuous to hang this war on ethnographic stuff when much of that is driven by colonization, military hegemony, discovery of oil & gas resources, and other factors. If Putin really wanted to make this war about ethnography then he could just dismiss any claims for the resources.
I disagree with your assertion that its all about oil and gas. After all, Putin did recognize Donetsk and Luhansk as independent. He did not move to incorporate them as part of Russia though truth be told, if that's what the locals want I would have no objection to it. You say this is about colonization. What colonization? The population in those areas has been majority Russian for centuries. Its not like they discovered oil and gas and then the Russkies flocked in. This has been their land for a long time.
***Yeah, well... that doesn’t sound right. I don’t remember Wilson having much to do with Sudetenland because he was a WW1 guy and already gone from the presidency.
Read the 14 points. Read about when Czechoslovakia was created.....and where! LOL!
[shitmo]***No, that’s what Pootypoot hung his hat on. The fact that he chose such a shallow justification and that you’re defending it shows that you are simply a Putinista.[/shitmo]
That's what the locals wanted. The fact that you do not believe government derives its legitimacy from the consent of the governed, that you reject the very basis upon which America was founded shows you are a globalist Soros puppet.
All this stuff, ie the actual history of the area utterly destroys your claims. No wonder you're desperate to dismiss it.
***By focusing on the minsk bullshiite instead of the Budapest Agreement, you show your true colors. Because the minsk stuff would never have happened if Russia had honored the Budapest agreement as well as the Ukes did.
By first talking about broken promises. Then when the broken promise of NATO expansion was brought up shifting instead to signed agreements, then when the Minsk Agreement was brought up trying to dismiss that shows your true colors. You're a globalist Soros stooge who will happily swallow whatever propaganda the corporate media/big tech spew for their deep state masters.
***None of those people would have died if Russia had kept to the Budapest Agreement.
None of those people would have died had the government in Kiev kept to the Minsk Agreement.
***Simple, straightforward, Putinist Propaganda.
Simple straightforward truth. Why do you think all those Uke troops were massed on the border of the Donbas?
***You got it bad. Putinist. Keep puffin.,/p>
You've got it bad Soros globalist puppet. Keep swallowing.
I accept your surrender.
I accept your surrender again.
You: Soros Globalist stooge.
LOL! You can't help yourself.
You're a globalist stooge. You swallow the propaganda put out by the Deep State on Corporate Media and Big Tech unthinkingly. hint: When Soros, Schwab, Biden, Clinton, the Neocons, the Deep State, the Globalists, Big Tech, the Corporate media are on one side......don't be on that side.
LOL! You really can't help yourself can you?
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