Posted on 01/01/2018 3:33:07 AM PST by Oshkalaboomboom
In the context of revealing the FBI/DOJ coordinated plot to plan and execute an unlawful interference with an election, and then engage in conspiracy to commit treason against a sitting president, I believe "Trump has already won".
In those two specific instances, any doubts expressed by some posters as to the logical conclusion and end-game tactics tend to reveal a whiff of NeverTrump. So, following the rules of debate 101, if we can reach a consensus that the two points above are settled and tabled, then we can begin the fun part:
How does Trump solidify his (temporal) wins into a lasting, (semi) permanent restoration of the republic and rule of law?
This is where the question of prosecuting treason/coup will begin to get truly interesting, and will establish a framework for the next 100+ years of American history. I believe in the military option; others, for many valid reasons, believe Trump should adhere to traditional civilian legal procedures.
FR provides a great framework for publicly fleshing out & establishing a core framework for either case. Let the debate(s) begin.
I can't help but doubt it. If Trump allows them to endlessly build more of an unfair legal attack against him, especially more arrests of his associates if not family, it's that much more of an attack that he will have to defend and explain. And even assuming he eventually comes out on top, to then try to arrest Mueller or others, he will be faced with just as many saying "in America we don't jail our political opponents after they lose."
Right now the press is doing a good job of keeping the illegal acts of Hillary/Obama and the deep state under wraps. We here at FR know what they did, but I was very surprised when visiting with my strong conservative family members recently how little they did. Trump has got to get that message out, and pull the trigger as soon as possible, to avoid even more collateral damage, if not suffering a critical hit.
Happy New Year FRiend! Hope it's a great one for you and yours.
Here is an article that describes the thinking of some of those he is up against, and how they are planning to take down the President.
https://www.salon.com/2017/12/02/mueller-has-a-roadmap-and-the-end-game-is-nigh/
I personally think it's rather outlandish, but the media and many Congressmen would quickly go all in if Mueller released something like this in his final report. Would that be enough, I doubt it, but no one knows for sure. There are even some that believe that Trump may even be betrayed by his inner circle, such as those that advised him to fire Flynn, which started this whole mess. Do I believe that, not necessarily, but I do consider it proof that we really just don't know. It's not even clear how hard Trump himself is willing to fight, as you just highlighted.
Stfu comey...you are a ratty little twerp and clinton operative....
I think I'd be laying as low as possible, and doing only what my lawyers tell me to do, and nothing that they don't tell me to.
You make a slew of great points, as always. Unfortunately, on the other side we have the all but unquantifiable treachery of the Sessions-Rosenstein bff tag team. What that pair did to Trump defies description. By giving Mueller an open-ended mandate, unlimited resources and blind DOJ support they virtually guaranteed the investigation will be indefinite.
BUT the instant Trump makes any move against Sessions or Mueller the Watergate hysteria will start and never end. By painting Trump as Nixon Saturday Night Massacring his ‘enemies,’ they will literally hound him out of office. The GOP will join in; most of them hate Trump as much or more than the Democrats. The idea that Trump could survive total isolation and brutal, never-ending attacks is a fairytale. They would take him down the way a huge pack of hyenas takes down a lone prey. He wouldn’t stand a chance.
People are desperate to blame Trump, but this is a Sessions creation. He did it so quickly and secretively that the coup was complete before Trump could intervene. It was treachery, pure and simple. Sorry, Sessions-defenders; he’s the guilty party.
That media/frenemy onslaught is going happen either way. But if he pre-emptively strikes, that is the only major battle front he will be fighting, and he has the goods on why they should be fired, which Nixon didn't. But if he waits, he will have that same battlefront, plus the battlefront of whatever BS that Mueller tries to trot out, most likely being completely trumped up charges on illegally obtained evidence. So he would have twice the fight on his hands.
This is of course assuming that Trump and Mueller haven't agreed on some eventual cease fire, so they can both leave with their dignity intact, which can't be completely discounted. But if they are truly at war, and war is hell, the sooner he can get it over and move on to the MAGA agenda, which by the way includes firing deep state agents such a Mueller anyway, the better.
The sad truth is that there is only one way to avoid a death-match with the media and both parties on one side and Trump on the other. That way is to let the Mueller witch hunt play out. Afterward Trump can fire Sessions and Rosenstein on the same day—and I’d guess he will.
Btw, Nixon had something Trump doesn’t have: a semi-sane, somewhat rational electorate. Post-modernism has triumphed since then, and insanity is the order of the day. Sports Illustrated wouldn’t have put a mutilated male on its cover in Nixon’s day, and called it a woman. Today they do so with almost zero pushback—and that’s just one small example.
I tend to look forward, viewing the long arc of history through the prism of generational cycles, each repeating the same thematic points. Others are very good detectives sifting through reams of details (eg Sundance), while some exhibit a preference for 'failure analysis' ie after-the-fact investigatory commissions.
My fault is becoming impatient with those who prefer to make sure any fires are really out. I co-wrote a series of technical book years ago, and my co-author used to laugh, saying I only needed one data point to discern a trend.
So, in this instance, I've already mentally checked out with respect to Mueller, et al. I don't even really find any more fascination with the attempted DOJ/FBI coup. Where my interest lies in determining whether Trump wants to join Washington & Lincoln as the next most important president in US history. (I was a freshly minted college grad when I had a chance to attend RR's '84 election night party. Let me say that Reagan, as great as he was, was no Trump.)
In that regard, how the (cold) civil war is prosecuted is what piques my interest. As a devout atheist, I'm highly agnostic as to the outcome of the US experiment. Unlike others who may tend to display emotional attachment, if Trump exhibits any discernible tendency towards leniency, then I feel we can logically conclude that the republic is over.
If that's the case, then a strategy oriented towards asset preservation, political silence and a mind set geared towards self-preservation is in order. OTOH, if Trump shows any indication towards recognizing this particular cross-road in history, and his potential role in setting a course for generations to come, then I will be happy to man the ramparts and engage in the great information war to help shape public opinion and gain the backing of the 3%.
There is rumor he was a pawn to much that was going on and not in on a lot of it but made to be the face of it none the less. If so, are his tweets directed at Trump or poking at his old handlers, knowing what is coming. Obama was a puppet of the deep state thus the deep state were the 'leadership" of the US for the last 8 years or more and that is changing. I only suggest this because poking the Trump administration is stupid strategy for anyone in Comey's position at the moment and Comey is not dumb.
Could be. My estimation is, once Mueller releases his trumped up charges, there is more likelihood of defections of Republicans to Mueller's side. Some are waiting just for that, surely. When the Congressional (and possibly IG) reports are released, Trump will be at the high point of making his case to the public, and in the best position to make an offense/defense counter play. Hopefully that happens before Mueller arrests some more Trump team members, but it will probably be close. Also we should expect some sort of salacious media scandal to target Trump again soon too.
You’re assuming that A, Mueller will find something of significance against Trump, and B, that the IG report will be a plus for Trump. There is no evidence to support either conclusion; both are opinions only.
Bannon called Trump’s firing of Comey the biggest mistake in modern politics. Bannon is supposedly on our side. Anyone who can’t envision the cataclysmic upheaval the firing of Sessions or Mueller would precipitate is not thinking from the POV of the media, the swamp or the entrenched politicians. It would make Watergate look like a picnic.
Being able to accurately see far down the political looking glass is one of the most challenging things to do, so I wish you well. Not many expected Trump to even be the nominee, much less the President. Not many predicted Jeff Sessions would be Trump's main whipping boy. Not many predicted the Republicans would lose that Alabama Senate seat. Politics is an extremely difficult thing to predict, by witness of the endless stream of professional talking heads constantly being proven wrong. Asset market analysis, challenging in itself, is significantly more predictable, for example.
As bad as we hate to admit it, the country is evenly split down the middle right now. The Democrats might even take back the house, based on historical precedents alone. But Republicans have their own share of blame for the bloating of the government and its power over the citizens, which is the true civil war going on. The only way that will be reversed is by more and more Trump-like figures going to Washington, or some of the levers of government finally moved out of Washington.
Trump is hopefully the start of that trend. I don't think the republic is lost, and am very sorry to hear you say you feel that way. It would seem more logical to me that someone feeling that way would believe Trump is about to meet his demise at the hands of the permanently entrenched deep state. They are certainly trying. But if you truly feel that Trump currently has the upper hand, maybe you actually believe there's hope for the republic after all.
But I don't really want to probe your long term dystopic predictions though, please. I'm too busy fighting the battles in the here and now, to prevent that from ever happening.
Cheers!
Actually I've been stating that Mueller's charges will be ~"completely trumped up and based on illegally obtained evidence" but that doesn't mean there won't be a mad rush by many to support them as above reproach. I've also been one of the leading voices suggesting that people should not put their faith in the IG report, since it's coming from the DOJ itself.
Trump is a much better position than Nixon was. First, he's not really guilty of what they're supposed to be investigating him for. Second, he has evidence showing there is likely more crimes committed by the investigators, than by him. Crimes of using government powers against a political opponent, just like Watergate, but in the opposite direction. Third, he has some powerful committees in Congress pointing out the crimes that were performed against him. Fourth, he is seen by his supporters as a transformational figure, and they are emotionally invested in his well being.
A better analogy to Nixon, as far as what they are guilty of, and what is going to happen to them ultimately, is actually probably Comey and Mueller.
Speculation re how the Mueller or the IG investigations will play out is useless. We don’t know. Speculation as to how the vast anti-Trump forces would react to a Sessions or Mueller firing is not useless. They’ve already gone insane over complete nothingburgers. All they’re waiting for is something bigger. If Trump gives it to them it will never end. They’ll hound him out of office.
But Trump is too canny to hand them the weapons they need to take him out. He’ll bide his time for now, and then fire the culprits en masse. Sessions gave him little choice on the timing, but once the coast is clear the chickens will come home to roost.
If as you say Trump is only waiting for the coast to be clear before firing them, then it's in their interest to make sure the coast is never clear, it would appear to me.
The only way they let Trump walk, I think, is if they reach some agreement that he lets the FBI etc walk too. But I don't think either side trusts each other enough to reach some sort of agreement like that, and the sociopaths on the left aren't known for surrender. Guess we'll see.
It is 100% true that Mueller will drag it out as long as possible, with Sessions’ blessing. However, Trump is a PR genius. He keeps chipping away at Mueller’s investigation. Mueller’s approval #s were much higher at the beginning than they are now. And Trump is anything but finished on that score.
Trump has another huge plus going for him. Having finally gotten the tax cuts, he’s sitting atop an economy that is seething to take off. The better the economy gets, the higher Trump’s approval will rise. The more popular Trump becomes, the more leverage he has.
Things are going Trump’s way. Thanks to Sessions, there are massive speed bumps in the road. But Trump is patient. He’ll strike at just the right time.
What is ethical about failing to prosecute someone because you guess there was no intent to commit a crime.
You are absolutely correct.
One wonders if there are military precedents for trials for crimes against the Republic. At what point does such a crime against a domestic enemy become war rather than seditious criminal activity?
If Black Lives Matter riots are shown to be part of the greater conspiracy, then the numbers take on quantum magnitude.
Having generals in the White House and lots of colonels at their beck and call might prove to be a very very wise move
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