There is a concept here that I’m not quite grasping in the full philosphical/constitutional sense. Someone help me out here.
Any time groups of people (small or very large) want to “peaceably assemble” under their first amendment rights, the state needs to also assemble an equivalent police force and it’s the fault of the state of the “peaceable” protesters don’t’ stay peaceful?
Granted, I get the point that they are claiming willful negligence.... that there was a police presence and they intentionally did not create a barrier.
But how much should it cost the people when groups assemble and don’t stay peaceful? Millions? Billions? Should we call in the national guard? Military? Where does this “responsibility” stop?
Or does it just legally reside with the people who didn’t stay peaceful?
I have seen and heard witnesses state that the 2 groups were actually ‘herded’ together by police personnel.
The police are responsible for maintaining law and order. The protesters are responsible for maintaining peaceful actions on their own part.
Any protester, on any side, who instigated violence should be arrested and charged.
The police, and their elected masters, should be arrested and charged if their actions (as is evident in this case, IMO) caused two opposing sides to come into conflict due to proximity - especially when the police supposedly had a plan to ensure no such violence would ensue, but decided to follow a plan to put the two groups in close contact with no supervising presence.
The fact of the matter appears to be that the police had 4 directions in which they could disperse the protesters in the park. 3 went through police-controlled areas. The 4th went straight into the Antifa mob. The police decided to funnel the permitted protesters into the Antifa mob.
New York City is a leftist dump, but you rarely see riots there because they have a police force in excess of 30,000 that is larger than the military forces of most countries.
I would think that MOST police departments have a common mantra of “To protect and to serve”. Apparently in Charlottesville, Virginia, their mantra is “To protect and to serve, unless people are assembling to exercise their first amendment rights”.
Many cities, I’m not sure of Charlottesville, but many cities require that the group requesting the permit must pay for any additional protection deemed necessary to control/protect the protesters/counter-protesters (this depends on the size, expectations, etc...).
But, are you asking if the police/city/State have some sort of “constitutional” expectation to keep people safe while they are trying to exercise their basic rights?
IN GENERAL, I would say YES, the police/city/State are supposed to protect people while they are exercising their basic rights.
Are you suggesting that basic protection is too much to ask of the police/city/State?
Any time groups of people (small or very large) want to “peaceably assemble” under their first amendment rights, the state needs to also assemble an equivalent police force and it’s the fault of the state of the “peaceable” protesters don’t’ stay peaceful?
It seems to me that if they are not peaceful they've lost all constitutional protection and it's the government's job to nip it!
How do we protect our right to assemble and free speech if we don’t want to provide law enforcement?
If you don’t think there is an obligation to defend the right of assembly and free speech there are still issues with not providing law enforcement.
The problem as I see it is when police witness crimes in their presence and do nothing. That has been happening all over the country with only a couple of exceptions. Nearly all of the previous incidents did not involve removing Confederate statues at all. Streets and highways are blocked, nothing is done. Protestors assault people, nothing is done. Protestors damage property, nothing is done. Protestors commit arson, nothing is done. This has been the response all over the country to violent protestors, only in a couple of places did LE crack down on the criminal aspect of it right at the start, and those gatherings remained peaceful.
When the police do nothing while crimes are happening in front of them, nothing to protect people being assaulted- it causes more violence. In some cases LE has gone after the thugs after the incident but that isn’t even always known about one way or the other. The visual is that nothing is being done. This causes violent protestors to become bolder, more violent. It also causes those that fear they might be victims to decide they must defend themselves, cannot expect LE to do so- at that point you have people riled up on both sides. Escalation of violence in public as a result of LE not doing anything.
I don’t have a concrete answer as to how much police protection is needed, but if LE isn’t going to do anything if they are there- that is not even the issue. If we decide as taxpayers that we don’t want to pay for police to be at protests- how do we support free speech? The left wants to make conservatives sit down and shut up. If the police are not there- the left is emboldened to force people to sit down and shut up- go home or pay the price.
What about the safety of people who are not involved in the rally or protest? People live, work, travel through those areas and they are also in danger. Should they barricade themselves in their homes when there is a rally or protest? What if the violent groups begin to act when there is no event, just to intimidate people. What if they set up at polling places in areas that generally go Republican? Is that something we should expect law enforcement to act on? If it happens, will they act?
If we don’t expect LE to uphold and defend the Constitution do we need LE? At this point we don’t know what they are willing or not willing to do after seeing them stand down time after time with violence/criminal acts in their presence.
No... when you peaceably assemble and when you have a permit to peaceably assemble in a particular area
then other people do not have a right to block or attack you from entering that area and police’s responsibility to protrct you frome being attacked and allow in the area you have our permission to assemble in
I have gone to several protests I don’t recall ever going out attacking protesters on the other side in fact when I went to several Freeper protest and we were counted protested we actually protected the counter-protesters right to speak