Posted on 04/05/2017 12:36:10 PM PDT by LS
Yesterday there was a thread discussing, somewhat critically, the F-35. I have heard good things about the plane from the fighter jock community, but these guys were older pilots, none of whom flew the F-35. I personally know almost nothing about it, and I asked them for info. They sent the following comments and links which seem pretty positive:
http://whythef35.blogspot.com/2012/05/comparing-f-16s-development-with-f-35.html
https://www.forbes.com/sites/lorenthompson/2016/03/28/solid-progress-f-35-fighter-pentagons-biggest-program-is-moving-forward-fast/#1d07166d4b57
From a pilot, who has not flown the F-35:
The F-35 is very complicated—3 different variants (USAF, USN, USMC), millions of lines of code, stealth, new technology, etc.;
Building a new fighter is ALWAYS difficult, but given the notes above this one is probably even more so than most; There are many detractors of this program, and they will speak poorly of it no matter what;
As of 30 Jan 2017 there have been 80,000 flight hours logged, without any major crisis that I can recall;
I have no doubt that all of the versions flying now will be vastly improved a year, two years, 10 years from now.
Fox has been showing links to articles on their webpage with a heading about the F22, but the image is the F35.
Typical reporter/editor stupidity.
I was at an airshow in Brunswick, GA ten days ago. The Blue Angels were there, flying F-18s through their crowd-pleasing aerobatic routines. The most spectacular performance, however, was by a pilot flying an F-22. The combination of speed, agility, and raw power exhibited by that aircraft was jaw-dropping. There was an F-35 parked at the show, but it was roped off so that nobody could get within 50 feet of it. While I was there (all day on Saturday), the F-35 never moved. I don’t know if it performed on one of the other two days, but I was disappointed because I wanted to compare the show performance of the two aircraft.
Doesn’t everyone agree that the F-22 is pretty good?
New aircraft, tanks, etc.. in many instances have issues. That’s a known fact the Osprey or Bradley.
While it is true that the F-35 is not the best dog fighter compared to F-22, F-18, F-15, F-16, etc... The Pentagon believes that dog fights in the future will not be the case.
Honestly, how many dog fights has U.S. Aircraft engaged with other nations since Vietnam? It’s very few compared to a fighter-bomber attack. Probably because we always attack enemy Air-Forces first in order to control the air.
The F-35 is a replacement of several fighter jets roll in battle such as the Steath Fighter, the Marine Harrier, the F-15 E and theolder F-18s.
Bottom line is this. It’s A LOT cheaper to maintain one jet vs. a variety of jets is the thinking.... Plus the F-35 has much less maintence time compared to flight hours with the older jets. Thus, you can run more missions.
What people need to ask is how come the Air Force, Navy and Marines all want this jet? Do they believe the Generals in all three branches are wrong.? For the record too the F-35 has been being pushed since the late 1980s and early 1990s. So it’s not just recent Generals.
"Dog fighting" refers to a close air battle after the two forces merge (meet head on). The thinking now is that missiles are good enough that large parts of the forces will be destroyed before the merge. One hopes that US technology will mean that the enemy bears the vast brunt of it.
Even closer in, modern IR missiles have a very wide field of regard. The AIM-9X (current Sidewinder) can also be cued to turn and find the target after launch. That means the nose of the aircraft no longer needs to point at the adversary to fire, meaning turn performance isn't nearly as important as it used to be. BTW, these IR missiles track the emissions from the body of the aircraft, and work from any direction, not just from behind.
Even the Sidewinder has an effective range of over ten miles. That is way beyond conventional "dogfighting".
” ... it is true that the F-35 is not the best dog fighter compared to F-22, F-18, F-15, F-16, etc...”
I don’t believe the F-22 is a dog fighter, either. It’s billed as an “air superiority” craft. With it’s stealth and long-range, air-to-air missile capability, the advantage of the F-22 is that it can stand off and take out enemy aircraft before it is “seen.”
Ok. Honestly, then, how many times have needed hi-tech, semi-stealthy air-to-mud jet aircraft since Vietnam?
Wouldn’t we better off with LOTS of armored, close support crop-dusters flown by Sergeants, instead?
F-22s have vectored thrust and guns. They dogfight just fine.
It is just that, properly handled, and not hampered by stupid rules of engagement, they don’t have to.
they have had issues as well, one fatal;
One must also remember that a lot of the critics of the F-35 worked on competing projects of for Boeing. The politicians that always criticize it are usually those that supported the Boeing model that lost the competition between the two models. The worst of problems for the F-35 are now in the past. The reports coming out lf the last Red Flag war game in Nevada are glowing; the F-35 racked up a 20:1 kill ratio. It also defeated aggressor aircraft when it was wildly outnumbered. I saw a video that claimed at Red Flag, now that the F-35 has it’s full combat capability one F-35 consistently defeated 6 F-15’s, 6-F-16’s, 6F-18’s, and 6 of any Euro fighters that were in Red Storm this year. The F-35 is here to stay it is the best Strike Fighter ever produced. Working together with F-22’s, the F-35 will allow the US and our allies to operate together to establish air supremacy in any theater of operations. The F-35 gives US pilots a bigger advantage in team work, tactical battle management and situational awareness than any pilots have ever had over any potential enemies. It is a game changer, and if you listen to the pilots that fly it, you will hear all of them talk about how much easier the F-35 is to fly and fight than the aircraft they flew previously.
“F-22s have vectored thrust and guns. They dogfight just fine.
It is just that, properly handled, and not hampered by stupid rules of engagement, they don’t have to.”
That was my point. There is no need to dogfight when you can throw a knockout punch from many miles away. In any case, my observations at the Brunswick airshow lead me to agree with you that the F-22 would do very well in a dogfight.
The F-22 was the air dominance fighter to crush everything in the sky. It was over engineered and over built and suffered from massive price tags which hindered how many the Airforce bought. It’s a similar story to the Seawolf class attack sub. As a result only so many were ever built.
You are absolutely correct. And the F-35 shares the same advantage. Stealth will be most important factor in which side will win the air battles of the coming war. Whomever possess the best stealth can fly around with impunity picking off the enemy before the enemy even knows they’re targeted, or that enemy stealth aircraft are in the area. But, the F-22 is a very good dogfighter if it needs to be due to the variable thrust engines, it can do maneuvers that very few, if any other aircraft can perform. You are correct though, the accuracy and reliability of modern A2A missiles will make twisty turning close in dogfighting a thing of the past, it will happen but very rarely.
I am hearing the same from the military guys here in Nevada.
I believe that god’s eye makes everything else obsolete. Sure the F-35 will have lots of teething pains but the ability to see the entire battle space from the pilot’s helmet is simply a stunning achievement.
F-35 cannot hold enough bullets for Close Air Support. Perhaps it may be good for other things but not Close Air Support.
“The F-22 was the air dominance fighter to crush everything in the sky. It was over engineered and over built and suffered from massive price tags which hindered how many the Airforce bought. It’s a similar story to the Seawolf class attack sub. As a result only so many were ever built.”
It wasn’t so much the absolute cost of the F-22, it was that the brass wanted the money for the F-35 program. Recently the AF has been complaining about how few F-22s we have.
The problem is that many systems in the F-22 are now outdated. Its computers run as slow as 25 MHz. The airframe is, of course, outstanding.
What the military really needs to figure out is how to allow upgrade technology smoothly over time. That would be a huge game-changer.
The thinking now is that we’re going to have to wait for the sixth gen air supremacy fighter, operational around 2030. Personally I think a much more cost effective approach would be to evolve the F-22 design, including a two seater with quite a bit larger internal bays - and of course upgrading all the electronics. A two seater would allow the weapons guy to control air-to-air drones in the area.
The biggest problem with the place is its obscene price tag.
War is about economics as much as it is about violence.
The same was still somewhat true when the F-22 was being developed.
Here and now, however, computing power is at least as important as speed and agility are, if not more so.
The F-35 brings the biggest brain and the most badass software, in addition to engine power and agility, to whatever situation it might find itself.
Whatever the bugs are, and there are always problems, even with mature programs, they will be addressed and fixed as need be.
Fwiw, whatever they may say now, people bitched and moaned about the F-15, the F-16 and the F-18 at first and they're still bitching and moaning about the F-22, the B-1B and B-2.
Also fwiw, as you no doubt know, you will rarely if ever encounter decent reporting about anything aviation, even in times of responsible journalism, which our now is not.
For example, what's the latest fake news about Trump? It's always going to be something, generally something not true or blown out of proportion, such are the times we live in as the people we have become.
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