[[You simply cannot say that he did not want to go to Heaven, at least implicitly, and the fact is that Abraham had a reason for saying that there was a great gulf fixed btwn the two realms that prevented crossing. If no one wanted to be with Abraham then why mention it? ]]
Please point out In the verse where he said he wanted to go to heaven? Had he wished to, don’t you think he would have asked at the one opportunity he had to ask?
The chasm statement is stating that even if one should want to- they can not- because there’s a chasm- that’s it-
[[And it is clear that the rich man wanted relief,]]
Yep- He selfishly wanted God to suspend his punishment for some relief
[[It is to such basic desire to escape wrath that the Lord appealed to in advising us to cut off whatever would send us to Hell. Therefore it can be said that the lost in Hell would want Heaven as much as a person who was motivated to repent due to the warnings alone of unquenchable fire. How much more the reality.]]
Oh my word- now we’re really reaching!
[[Actually, weeping and gnashing of teeth is associated with the realization of what they missed out on, which presupposes they desired it.]]
Sure, verse please? The only ‘sadness’ they will have is because they thought God would forgive them despite them rejecting Him-
[[Wrong, as God would be perfectly just in showing no mercy, and is under no obligation to do so, or to grant repentance even in this life]]
I guess you missed the whole point-
[[Wrong, as their is no indication in God’s word that they will be so furious that they will gnash their teeth in anger and rebellion against God,]]
there is NO love in hell- NONE- Hell is NOT a place where love can thrive or even exist- There is NO God there, NO Holy spirit, and nothing but unrepentant hatred of God
Hell is darkness, it is an absence of love and a place for people with an absence of love-
[[Instead of raging against God as if they were being unjustly punished, the Lord describes the rich man as humbly accepting his punishment,]]
I’m sorry, I missed the part where he was ‘humble’ could you point htat out please?
[[Lord indicates is that the gnashing is due to the pain one realizes, as the Lord shall “cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.”]]
Ok- again- I missed where the verse indicates that- When one gnashes teeth, it’s generally in extreme anger
[[Wrong, and frankly absurd, as earnestly desiring mercy is not dictating and being contentious in continued disobedience ]]
Oh for crying out loud- now it has to be ‘continual’ in order to be considered sin? What part of the field are you going to move the goalpost to next?
[[Which is your error, that of assuming men souls in this realm like the rich man was will be like raging at God in the next out of perceived injustice.]]
Don’t put words in my mouth- I never said ANYTHING about ‘perceived injustice’- I have rather consistently said man is in a state of complete separation from God and their sin nature is now unleashed and unrestrained- and their rage will fester against God along with the rage of their master Satan whom they went to willingly- There will be NOTHING in them that will desire God- NOTHING-
There is NOTHING in sinful man on this earth alive that desires God- NOTHING- it is only the work of the Holy Spirit that draws a sin loving self loving person of perdition to God
Are you suggesting that the holy spirit will be present in Hell convicting men and women COMPLETELY given over to sin of their sins? How can one be sorry in hell when there is NO influence of good whatsoever in Hell?
The ONLY reason a sinner on earth turns to God is because God compels them- these people will NEVER go to God o n their own-
Concerning the rich man- this very likely is a parable- the rich man would NOT have a tongue, or lips- there is no indication the body is restored to those who are unsaved
Please point out In the verse where he said he did not want heaven, while If you read what i said then you should have seen that that rich man's please for relief would easily can translate into a a desire for the comfort of Heaven, as does the gulf that forbids it.
The chasm statement is stating that even if one should want to- they can not- because there’s a chasm- that’s it-
Which refutes what i said how??? The fact that something prevents escape to Abraham;s bosom indicates a desire to do so, unless you think the Berlin wall was simply to keep the West out. Souls tyherein did not need to know a lot about the West in order to desire it in essence, and likewise those in Hades.
But it appears you simply dismiss what is reasonable in the light of Scripture in order to maintain what is not taught in Scripture.
Yep- He selfishly wanted God to suspend his punishment for some relief
Are you for real? You just invalidated the Lord's many attempts motivate souls to want to chose their eternity by warning of torment, and which means that that those who were saved by fear are invalidated. Fear of torment is a valid motivation, but it does not end there.
[[It is to such basic desire to escape wrath that the Lord appealed to in advising us to cut off whatever would send us to Hell. Therefore it can be said that the lost in Hell would want Heaven as much as a person who was motivated to repent due to the warnings alone of unquenchable fire. How much more the reality.]]
Oh my word- now we’re really reaching!
Now you are really being unreason-able or stubborn. To the mature believer Heaven represents far more than simply escape from just punishment and comfort, but to the lost it need not be in order for them to be saved, though repentance itself is implicit in believing.
[[Actually, weeping and gnashing of teeth is associated with the realization of what they missed out on, which presupposes they desired it.]]
Sure, verse please? O
Once again it is apparent that you are not seeing things i wrote, for the very verse i supplied next shows weeping and gnashing of teeth is associated with the realization of what they missed out on. Which, along with the rich man's plea for the repentance of his brethren. refuted your assertion that there nothing "about repentance or wanting to cross into Heaven."
The only ‘sadness’ they will have is because they thought God would forgive them despite them rejecting Him-
Sure, verse please or more reading into a text what is not indicated or said? Instead, the Lord did not say "There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth," when ye shall see that you will not be forgiven, but "when you see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out." (Luke 13:28) They
[[Wrong, as God would be perfectly just in showing no mercy, and is under no obligation to do so, or to grant repentance even in this life]]
I guess you missed the whole point-
Wrong, as your premise was that God would be an unjust God if he shows no mercy when people finally ‘recognize the mistake they’ve made’.
[[Wrong, as their is no indication in God’s word that they will be so furious that they will gnash their teeth in anger and rebellion against God,]]
there is NO love in hell- NONE- Hell is NOT a place where love can thrive or even exist- There is NO God there, NO Holy spirit, and nothing but unrepentant hatred of God
So faced with the fact that the rich man showed love for his brethren, then like annihilationists who conclude there is no eternal torment since God is love, despite what the Word says, you reason that souls in Hell must be so furious that they will gnash their teeth in anger and rebellion against God since there is no love in Hell, despite that Scripture shows the rich man's love for one's own (unless you want to deny that, and redefine love). Instead, what is reasonable is that the realization that you are culpable for the suffering of others, if so, and can do nothing to help them, only adds to the torment.
a place for people with an absence of love-
Again, nowhere is this taught in Scripture, and the reality is that there are plenty of souls who are lost today who love others, and can even engage in selfless sacrificial acts on their behalf. The problem is that their ultimate love for others things above God prevents them from receiving the Lord Jesus.
I’m sorry, I missed the part where he was ‘humble’ could you point htat out please?
I am not surprised you miss anything by now that refutes you, but a man in torments pleading for mercy ("Father Abraham, have mercy on me,") for just one drop of water, and entreating ( "I pray thee therefore, father,") that someone be sent to warn his brethren of this place of torments, is well evidencing a humbled state. Of course, since you can make this man a rebellious contentious dictator then I am sure you can redefine that as needed.
Ok- again- I missed where the verse indicates that- When one gnashes teeth, it’s generally in extreme anger
But we must go by what it says in context.
[[Wrong, and frankly absurd, as earnestly desiring mercy is not dictating and being contentious in continued disobedience ]]
Oh for crying out loud- now it has to be ‘continual’ in order to be considered sin? What part of the field are you going to move the goalpost to next?
Ahem, those are your words i am responding to: "that does not sound like humbled, non contentious- but rather continued disobedience." What part of the field are you going to move the goalpost to next?
[[Which is your error, that of assuming men souls in this realm like the rich man was will be like raging at God in the next out of perceived injustice.]]
Don’t put words in my mouth- I never said ANYTHING about ‘perceived injustice’- I have rather consistently said man is in a state of complete separation from God and their sin nature is now unleashed and unrestrained- and their rage will fester against God along with the rage of their master Satan whom they went to willingly-
Besides your premise unleashed and unrestrained sin nature and rage against God being conjecture which is nowhere said, and only the opposite is said, if these souls are not raging against God due to perceived injustice - which is what the devil originally told Eve she was a victim of - then you have men souls raging against God knowing they are getting the due reward for their sins. Interesting but unlikely. I assumed perceived injustice would be consistent with your assertion of sin nature raging against God, as such false charges are a manifestation of it. Sorry.
There will be NOTHING in them that will desire God- NOTHING- There is NOTHING in sinful man on this earth alive that desires God- NOTHING- it is only the work of the Holy Spirit that draws a sin loving self loving person of perdition to God
The latter is true, but being dead in sins does not mean one is as sinful as he can be, or cannot resist sin at all, (Gn. 4:7) and do good objectively things, and even be "almost persuaded" or turn away from the Lord once convinced. (Heb. 3:12; 10:38,39; Gal. 5:1-4) And unregenerate souls even have light of the true God, and thus by nature can do things contained in the law, (Rm. 2:14) but when the lost "knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened." (Romans 1:21)
Are you suggesting that the holy spirit will be present in Hell convicting men and women
First, Whither shall I go from thy spirit? (Psalms 139:7) The Lord will "convince all that are ungodly...of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him" (Jude 15) at His return, and can certainly convict souls in Hell and at the final judgment of their guilt, but which does not mean they realize the supernatural grace of Godly sorrow and faith.
COMPLETELY given over to sin of their sins? How can one be sorry in hell when there is NO influence of good whatsoever in Hell?
Again, where do you get the idea that there can be no positive affections in Hell? The rich man obviously cared for his brethren, and pleaded for Lazarus to warn them, to no avail. In addition, being completely given over to sin of their sins is progressive in this life, as Romans 1 tells us.
The ONLY reason a sinner on earth turns to God is because God compels them- these people will NEVER go to God o n their own-
Those in Hell, while humbled and realizing the warrant for repentance and pleading for comfort, and seeking to be with such as Abraham, will not be granted repentance unto life. Man can claim no credit as it is God who elects, draws, opens the heart, convicts of sin, righteousness and judgment, and grants repentant faith, and works in the believer to do His will (Rm. 9:11; Jn. 6:44; 12:32; 16:9; Acts 11:18; 16:14; Eph. 2:8,9) so that they do what they otherwise could not and would not do. But man is rightly blamed for spurning God's grace, and will be judged accordingly.
Concerning the rich man- this very likely is a parable- the rich man would NOT have a tongue, or lips- there is no indication the body is restored to those who are unsaved
Wrong. As shown already on this thread, Lk. 16:19-33 is not a parable, and God can provide some manner of sensory equivalent body in the spiritual realm, just as he will in the resurrection, and Lk. 16 testifies the former.