Some Evangelicals Take New Look at Bible’s Stance on Gays

NY Times ^ | June 8, 2015 | Laurie Goodstein

[C19fan]

As a young, openly gay Christian activist, Matthew Vines considered it a victory just to get into a room at a conservative Christian university here with four influential evangelicals who disagreed with him over what the Bible says about homosexuality.

He ended up in a polite, heartfelt three-hour debate last month over Scripture passages about topics like celibacy, eunuchs, slavery — and the connections between sex and marriage.

“Every single system you have within your body — whether it’s your respiratory system, your excretory system, your muscular system — can be completed as an individual,” said Sean McDowell, a professor here at Biola University and a well-known Christian author and speaker. “But there’s only one system in which male and female have half and become a united whole, and that’s in reproduction.”

[Mr Rogers]

“I’ve said for years that Christians will always, always lose this argument. If you don’t believe in what the Bible says or think it’s an older version of the “Book of Virtues” or just a fantasy story compilation, then God’s Word against homosexuality as an argument against it is pointless.”

I simply tell people that when a stallion gives it up the butt of another stallion, and the other stallion is grateful, I’ll accept the idea that homosexuality is normal. Until then, it seems obvious to me that the penis was not intended under natural law for some guy’s butt.

[bjorn14]

I have always asked “How can 150 generations be wrong and all of a sudden 2 generatios are right?”

[Mrs. Don-o]

Exactly right, Miss Marmelstein. The concept of a class of persons inherently "different" from the rest of us, defined by their sex drive, was not invented until the 19th century.

Through most of its existence, Christendom assumed that anybody might be tempted by this sexual sin, perhaps under certain circumstances (e.g. in all all-male environment, such as prisons, barracks, work-camps, boys' schools, monasteries)--- and that such behavior is forbidden for all. There was no concept of "gay" or "straight".

The Bible doesn't say a word about "homosexuals." It's the act of perverting sex which is condemned.

[Mrs. Don-o]

I’m pretty sure “vile affections” is a broad category which comprises homosexual vice and a whole lot of other vices, such as promiscuity, prostitution, pederasty, rape, sexual sadism, teachers’ seduction of students, etc. etc. Notice that includes, but is not limited to, oral and anal buggery.

[Reddy]

Tim Keller’s response to Matthew Vine’s views:

http://www.redeemer.com/redeemer-report/article/the_bible_and_same_sex_relationships_a_review_article

Good read.

[central_va]

The Bible calls this act “the sin of Sodom”.

Indians (woo woo not dot head) called it "Maize holing".

[Mrs. Don-o]

Kertbeny was, one could say, of the Victorian “era” (mid-19th century) -— just not British.

[Mrs. Don-o]

"But of course, homosexuality is only one on the list of abuses of sex that he provides. We Christians give too much of a pass to the adulterers et al."

I agree with you on this, RobbyS. When I hear of contraceptors (Onanists) focusing moral indignation on gays alone (Sodomites), I think... Well, it's one of those things that make you got "Hmmm..."

If heterosexuals who "love each other" are willing to justify sex-minus-procreative-significance, it's hard to imagine why gays who "love each other" wouldn't do the same.

[Mrs. Don-o]

You are right once again, Gamecock.

However, perhaps Vines thinks that the sex laws of the OT are in the ceremonial and ritual, rather than the moral category. (I don't know what he thinks, exactly, because I haven't read his stuff.)

One can refute that by making reference to what Christians have always believed is part of the moral law, for the last 2000 years. This business of man-on-man sex being OK wasn't even dreamed of as being OK until about 15 minutes ago, comparatively speaking.

I wonder if any of the conservative churchmen who "dialogued" with Vines are also against contraception? --- a very popular form of de-natured, radically non-Biblical sex.

[Gamecock]

***However, perhaps Vines thinks that the sex laws of the OT are in the ceremonial and ritual, rather than the moral category. (I don’t know what he thinks, exactly, because I haven’t read his stuff.)***

You are probably right, however ceremonial laws are identified as such in the NT. Homosexuality is still identified against God’s Law in the NT.

All I can think is that Vines is playing fast and lose with Scripture, much like Satan did during Christ’s 40 days in the desert.

[GreyFriar]

Mrs. Don-o, the Bible acknowledges that sodomy and sodomites exist. To me, sodomites are today’s homosexuals.

[Mrs. Don-o]

Distasteful as it is tospeak of in detail, , the law defines sodomy as an act of oral or anal intercourse, usually a completed act, i.e. with ejaculation.

That's the "way of life" of all too many so-called straight couples as well.

[patriotfury]

“The problem is the destruction of Language and Words”.

Well stated and true. What is happening is people have been and are redefining language to fit their own “lifestyles,” thirst for self-gratification, and a world without moral boundaries.

The world will soon get what it really wants, a world without God. At least for a bit.

How is the following not taking place?

“For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but wanting to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance to their own desires, and will turn away their ears from the truth and will turn aside to myths”. 2 Timothy 4:3-4 NASB

Say’s volumes about those proactively trying to eliminate the message and meaning of the very scripture they draw their own “authority” from.

As well, the future existence of most professing members of churches in general will be “... good for nothing, but to be thrown out and trampled under foot by men”.

“You are the salt of the earth; but if the salt has become tasteless, how can it be made salty again? It is no longer good for anything, except to be thrown out and trampled under foot by men”. Matthew 5:13 NASB

Or another concise description which dovetails nicely with all of this -

18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19 because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them. 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse. 21 For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened. 22 Professing to be wise, they became fools, 23 and exchanged the glory of the incorruptible God for an image in the form of corruptible man and of birds and four-footed animals and crawling creatures.

24 Therefore God gave them over in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, so that their bodies would be dishonored among them. 25 For they exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.

26 For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions; FOR THEIR WOMEN EXCHANGED THE NATURAL FUNCTION FOR THAT WHICH IS UNNATURAL, 27 AND IN THE SAME WY ALSO MEN ABANDONED THE NATURAL FUNCTION OF THE WOMAN AND BURNED IN THEIR DESIRE TOWARD ONE ANOTHER, MEN WITH MEN COMMITTING INDECENT ACTS AND RECEIVING IN THEIR OWN PERSONS THE DUE PENALTY OF THEIR ERROR.

28 And just as they did not see fit to acknowledge God any longer, GOD GAVE THEM OVER TOA DEPRAVED MIND, TO DO THOSE THING WHICH ARE NO PROPER, 29 being filled with all unrighteousness, wickedness, greed, evil; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, malice; they are gossips, 30 slanderers, haters of God, insolent, arrogant, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents, 31 without understanding, untrustworthy, unloving, unmerciful; 32 AND ALTHOUGH THEY KNOW THE ORDINANCE OF GOD, THAT THOSE WHO PRATICE SUCH THINGS ARE WORTHY OF DEATH, THEY NOT ONLY DO THE SAEM, BUT ALSO GIVE HEARTY APPROVAL TO THOSE WHO PRACTICE THE SAME”. Romans 1:18-32 NASB

For those guilty of doing this in the name of God and to His Church, it truly would be better to have a millstone tied around their necks, and cast into the sea, than to experience what is coming.

[Mrs. Don-o]

"Everything has to be kind, polite, nice....which essentially leaves them free to claim any absurd thing imaginable...

Right you are. That's exactly how Planned Parenthood pomoted contraception in the 1940's-1960's. Something any nice, normal, loving heterosexual couple could sensibly do. Regardless of the fact that it violates Divine and Natural Law.

[Westbrook]

> I don’t see it. Show me the passage where entire cities
> were burned to death for adultery, fornication, lying,
> thieving or murdering?

Have you read Exodus, Numbers, Joshua, Judges, Ezekiel, Jonah ... ??

The Sin of Sodom was “idleness of time and fullness of bread”. Look it up.

Homosexuality is an abomination, as is “transgender” (it is an abomination for a man to wear that which pertaineth unto a woman). It becomes dominant when life is easy.

Miscegenation is also an abomination. Look it up.

[Mrs. Don-o]

Couples who are unable to conceive are still supposed to have sex which is in the procreative form and to avoid perversions thereof, e.g. oral/anal. Just as Biblical Abraham and Sarah, though past the age of childbearing, still made their sexual union in the natural manner as a “sign” of their openness to life.

[DiogenesLamp]

Have you read Exodus, Numbers, Joshua, Judges, Ezekiel, Jonah ... ??

A long time ago. Don't remember any other cities being burned down by fire from the sky. There's that plague in Egypt, but it didn't destroy the City.

[Westbrook]

Ezekiel 16:49 (KJV)
Behold, this was the iniquity of thy sister Sodom, pride, fulness of bread, and abundance of idleness was in her and in her daughters, neither did she strengthen the hand of the poor and needy.

[GreyFriar]

I guess I’ll play my never used before ‘Protestant individual interpretation of the Bible’ card and say that I consider the sodomites, such as in Sodom & Gomorrah, as homosexuals. ;-)

[GreyFriar]

I guess I’ll play my never used before ‘Protestant individual interpretation of the Bible’ card and say that I consider the sodomites, such as in Sodom & Gomorrah, as homosexuals. ;-)