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To: annalex; daniel1212
Well, how do you think Luther's thesis of salvation by with alone squares with the second half of Chapter 2 of the Letter of St. James? Give it a try and I will have, I am sure, a fine example of Protestant obfuscation of scripture. Not of dogmatic disagreement with the Church dogma, but obfuscation of a clear inspired text.

Haven't you read all the comments given to you over the years that answer your presumed "poser"? There is no need at all for obfuscation OR ignoring of what Scripture says. In fact, I've seen nothing but Catholics' OWN attempts to obfuscate and explain away all the REST of Scripture which disproves the faulty assumption Catholicism makes to insist salvation is by faith AND works based on a few misinterpreted verses.

Contrary to your conclusion, Luther did a FINE job of teaching the place works have in the life of a Christian. It's not something I have ever denied, either. Perhaps if you had read and paid attention to them over the years instead of thinking ahead of ways to attack and blame, you wouldn't continue to make the same false accusations.

Here is what Luther said about the subject of faith and works, from http://www.iclnet.org/pub/resources/text/wittenberg/luther/luther-faith.txt

    Faith is not what some people think it is. Their human dream is a delusion. Because they observe that faith is not followed by good works or a better life, they fall into error, even though they speak and hear much about faith. ``Faith is not enough,''they say, ``You must do good works, you must be pious to be saved.'' They think that, when you hear the gospel, you start working, creating by your own strength a thankful heart which says, ``I believe.'' That is what they think true faith is. But, because this is a human idea, a dream, the heart never learns anything from it, so it does nothing and reform doesn't come from this `faith,' either.

    Instead, faith is God's work in us, that changes us and gives new birth from God. (John 1:13). It kills the Old Adam and makes us completely different people. It changes our hearts, our spirits, our thoughts and all our powers. It brings the Holy Spirit with it. Yes, it is a living, creative, active and powerful thing, this faith. Faith cannot help doing good works constantly. It doesn't stop to ask if good works ought to be done, but before anyone asks, it already has done them and continues to do them without ceasing. Anyone who does not do good works in this manner is an unbeliever. He stumbles around and looks for faith and good works, even though he does not know what faith or good works are. Yet he gossips and chatters about faith and good works with many words.

    Faith is a living, bold trust in God's grace, so certain of God's favor that it would risk death a thousand times trusting in it. Such confidence and knowledge of God's grace makes you happy, joyful and bold in your relationship to God and all creatures. The Holy Spirit makes this happen through faith. Because of it, you freely, willingly and joyfully do good to everyone, serve everyone, suffer all kinds of things, love and praise the God who has shown you such grace. Thus, it is just as impossible to separate faith and works as it is to separate heat and light from fire! Therefore, watch out for your own false ideas and guard against good-for-nothing gossips, who think they're smart enough to define faith and works, but really are the greatest of fools.

    Ask God to work faith in you, or you will remain forever without faith, no matter what you wish, say or can do.

And, from Reformation faith and works, it is further explained:

    In preaching the gospel, always focus on the matter of the will. Belief must come from the will to believe. There must be a surrender of the will, not a surrender to a persuasive or powerful argument. I must deliberately step out, placing my faith in God and in His truth. And I must place no confidence in my own works, but only in God. Trusting in my own mental understanding becomes a hindrance to complete trust in God. I must be willing to ignore and leave my feelings behind. I must will to believe. But this can never be accomplished without my forceful, determined effort to separate myself from my old ways of looking at things. I must surrender myself completely to God. — My Utmost for His Highest (The Golden Book of Oswald Chambers;1992, “The Drawing of the Father”)

    Eph. 2:10 A regenerated sinner becomes a living soul; he lives a life of holiness, being born of God: he lives, being delivered from the guilt of sin, by pardoning and justifying grace. All is the free gift of God, and the effect of being quickened by his power. It was his purpose, to which he prepared us, by blessing us with the knowledge of his will, and his Holy Spirit producing such a change in us, that we should glorify God by our good conversation, and perseverance in holiness. None can from Scripture abuse this doctrine, or accuse it of any tendency to evil. All who do so, are without excuse. — Matthew Henry's Concise Commentary on the Whole Bible

    James 2:14 In order to a proper interpretation of this passage, it should be observed that the stand-point from which the apostle views this subject is not before a man is converted, inquiring in what way he may be justified before God, or on what ground his sins may be forgiven; but it is after a man is converted, showing that that faith can have no value which is not followed by good works; that is, that it is not real faith, and that good works are necessary if a man would have evidence that he is justified. Thus understood, all that James says is in entire accordance with what is taught elsewhere in the New Testament. — Albert Barnes (1798-1870), Notes on the Bible

    Jas 2:14 From Jam. 1:22, the apostle has been enforcing Christian practice. He now applies to those who neglect this, under the pretence of faith. St. Paul had taught that "a man is justified by faith without the works of the law." This some began already to wrest to their own destruction. Wherefore St. James, purposely repeating (Jam. 2:21, Jam. 2:23, Jam. 2:25) the same phrases, testimonies, and examples, which St. Paul had used, Rom. 4:3, Heb. 11:17, Heb. 11:31, refutes not the doctrine of St. Paul, but the error of those who abused it. There is, therefore, no contradiction between the apostles: they both delivered the truth of God, but in a different manner, as having to do with different kinds of men. — John Wesley

    James 2:14-26 6. We are taught that a justifying faith cannot be without works, from two examples, Abraham and Rahab. Those who would have Abraham's blessings must be careful to copy after his faith: to boast of being Abraham's seed will not avail any, if they do not believe as he did... [2.] Those works which evidence true faith must to works of self-denial, and such as God himself commands (as Abraham's offering up his son, his only son, was), and not such works as are pleasing to flesh and blood and may serve our interest, or are the mere fruits of our own imagination and devising. — Matthew Henry (1662 – 1714), Commentary on the Whole Bible

    Jas 2:14-26 Those are wrong who put a mere notional belief of the gospel for the whole of evangelical religion, as many now do. No doubt, true faith alone, whereby men have part in Christ's righteousness, atonement, and grace, saves their souls; but it produces holy fruits, and is shown to be real by its effect on their works; while mere assent to any form of doctrine, or mere historical belief of any facts, wholly differs from this saving faith. A bare profession may gain the good opinion of pious people; and it may procure, in some cases, worldly good things; but what profit will it be, for any to gain the whole world, and to lose their souls?...True believing is not an act of the understanding only, but a work of the whole heart. — Matthew Henry's Concise Commentary on the Whole Bible

    Jas 2:17 If it hath not works, is dead - The faith that does not produce works of charity and mercy is without the living principle which animates all true faith, that is, love to God and love to man. — Adam Clarke, LL.D., F.S.A., (1715-1832), Commentary on the Bible

    Jas 2:14-18 Even so faith. Faith that has no power to bring one to obedience and to sway the life is as worthless as good wishes which end in words. — The People's New Testament (1891) by B. W. Johnson

    Jas 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. It is like a lifeless carcass, a body without a soul, Jam. 2:26 for as works, without faith, are dead works, so faith, without works, is a dead faith, and not like the lively hope and faith of regenerated persons: — Dr. John Gill (1690-1771), Exposition of the Entire Bible

    “If the works which living faith produces have no existence, it is a proof that faith itself (literally, ‘in respect to itself’) has no existence; that is, that what one boasts of as faith, is dead.” “Faith” is said to be “dead in itself,” because when it has works it is alive, and it is discerned to be so, not in respect to its works, but in respect to itself. — Robert Jamieson, A. R. Fausset and David Brown, Commentary on the Old and New Testaments

    Jas 2:17 So likewise that faith which hath not works is a mere dead, empty notion; of no more profit to him that hath it, than the bidding the naked be clothed is to him. — John Wesley

    Even so faith; that which they boasted of, and called faith. Is dead; void of that life, in which the very essence of faith consists, and which always discovers itself in vital actings and good fruits, where it is not hindered by some forcible impediment; in allusion to a corpse, which plainly appears to have no vital principle in it, all vital operations being ceased. It resembles a man’s body, and is called so, but in reality is not so, but a dead carcass. — Matthew Poole (1624 -1679)

It sounds to me like Luther and the Reformers had a pretty good handle on the subject of works in the life of a believer. I've seen the way some Roman Catholics explain away and obfuscate the myriad verses that tell us salvation is a gift of God BY His grace THROUGH faith and not by our works and they don't at all square with what Christians have always believed about Christ.

104 posted on 06/20/2014 7:42:54 PM PDT by boatbums (Proud member of the Free Republic Bible Thumpers Brigade.)
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To: boatbums

Everybody got it wrong for 1,500 years, then brother Luther came along and got it right. Lord, help us.


111 posted on 06/21/2014 5:22:25 AM PDT by NKP_Vet ("Truth is like a lion. You don't have to defend it. Let it loose. It will defend itself")
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To: boatbums; daniel1212

Right, that is perfect examples of Protestant obfuscation, when the simple fact remains that the Bible says one thing and your central doctrine says its opposite. The very length of your “explanations” shows dishonesty.


114 posted on 06/21/2014 2:22:39 PM PDT by annalex (fear them not)
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