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To: TXnMA; Alamo-Girl; spirited irish; xzins; rktman; P-Marlowe; MHGinTN; Heartlander
...our best, current estimate of the age of the universe (measured from our [earth-based] space/time coordinates using WMAP data) is 13.77 ± 0.059 billion years.... But, from the inception space-time coordinates, (God's viewpoint) it is still Six of our Creator's "workdays"....

Though this seems a paradox, it actually stands to reason, knowing what we know from solid scientific data. From the human standpoint, the former age estimate is an opportunity for a "lookback," specifically back to the divine origin — and as you have found, there is an extraordinarily interesting history of how God's Creation evolved from that "in the beginning." Yet whichever age you believe, both are premised in an "ex nihilo" creation. Time began, and before that, there was no time; space began, and before that, there was no space.

Surely every Christian knows that what God sees, and what humans see, can never be the same. Yet He rules over all Creation, from Alpha to Omega and every when and where in between, according to His Logos — His Word of the Beginning. In scientific language, this is called "the Singularity."

Thank you ever so much, dear brother In Christ, for taking an opportunity to help us understand what relativistic time is here.

18 posted on 03/08/2014 9:41:56 AM PST by betty boop (Resistance to tyrants is obedience to God. —Thomas Jefferson)
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To: betty boop
"Yet whichever age you believe, both are premised in an "ex nihilo" creation."

~~~~~~~~~~~~

My main point, Dear Sister in Christ, is that I believe both expressions of that timespan!

There is nothing in my scientific training or in Scripture that dictates that I should do otherwise...

19 posted on 03/08/2014 9:51:40 AM PST by TXnMA (Remember the Alamo! Remember Goliad! REPEAT San Jacinto!!!)
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To: betty boop
Surely every Christian knows that what God sees, and what humans see, can never be the same.

Precisely so, dearest sister in Christ! Thank you for your insights!

39 posted on 03/08/2014 8:34:25 PM PST by Alamo-Girl
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To: betty boop; TXnMA; Alamo-Girl; xzins; rktman; P-Marlowe; MHGinTN; Heartlander
Many people today believe that modern science has proven the earth to be billions of years old, and that every living thing descended from a single cell which itself is the result of chance combination of chemicals. Most believe that matter resulted from the Big Bang. Certain Christians, like Hugh Ross, teach that God is both the energizing force behind the Big Bang and the director of evolutionary process.

Against this way of thinking, the Word of God authoritatively teaches a six day creation, which today is vastly unpopular with most people.

Of the early Church Fathers who wrote on Genesis, all but Augustine who erred by teaching instantaneous creation, affirmed a literal, historic six day account of creation.

It's important that we understand that these men weren't primitive, unscientific goat-herders but rather came from backgrounds of evolutionary pantheism and pagan animism thus were intimately familiar with much of what passes for modern science: Big Bang and Steady State theories, vast ages, the doctrine of emanation and evolution (the universal life force).

Long before Darwin, Greek nature philosophers (600–100BC) were teaching primitive evolutionary conceptions, abiogenesis, natural selection, transmigration, reincarnation and vast ages together with many other modern assumptions. The fragments of Anaximander (c. 610–546 BC) show that he taught that ‘humans originally resembled another type of animal, namely fish’ while Democritus (c.460–370BC) taught that primitive people began to speak with ‘confused’ and ‘unintelligible’ sounds but ‘gradually they articulated words.’

The Greek Atomist Epicurus (341–270BC), the father of contemporary materialism and many of its’ modern assumptions, taught that there was no need of a God or gods, for the Universe came about by a chance movement of atoms. (Evolution: An Ancient Pagan Idea, Paul James Griffith, creation.com)

Darwinism affirms the claim made by Epicurus that living beings created themselves.

With respect to long ages, Plato and many other Greek philosophers taught that the present Universe came about millions of years ago. Writing in the fourth century AD, Lactantius said:

“Plato and many others of the philosophers, since they were ignorant of the origin of all things, and of that primal period at which the world was made, said that many thousands of ages had passed since this beautiful arrangement of the world was completed … .“ (ibid)

After the Greeks, the Roman naturalist Pliny the Elder (AD23–79) said we are so subject to chance,

“….that Chance herself takes the place of God; she proves that God is uncertain.” (ibid)

Greek and Roman philosophers received these ideas from ancient Sumerians (Babylonians), Egyptians and Hindus, whose nature philosophies extended back centuries before Greek and Roman civilization. For example, one Hindu belief was that Brahman (the Void or Universe) spontaneously generated itself (the modern theory of abiogenesis) as something like a seed or singularity about 4.3 billion years ago and then evolved under its’ own power by which it expanded and formed all that exists:

“These Hindus believed in an eternal Universe that had cycles of rebirth, destruction and dormancy, known as ‘kalpas’, rather like oscilla­ting big bang theories. We also read in the Hindu Bhagavad Gita that the god Krishna says, ‘I am the source from which all creatures evolve.” (ibid, Griffith)

In India the doctrine of evolution/reincarnation/karma was thoroughly established from ancient times. It was expounded first in the Upanishads (c. 1000 BC - AD 4), the philosophical-mystic texts held to be the essence of the Vedas.

The idea that the soul reincarnates is intricately linked to karma, the idea that jiva-atmas (souls) pass from one plane of existence to another and carry with them samskaras (impressions) from former states of being. These karmic impressions on the soul are taken to the next life and result in a causally-determined state of being. In some schools of Hinduism liberation from the cycle of death and rebirth (samsara), is considered the ultimate goal of earthly existence. This is known as Moksha in Hinduism or nirvana in Buddhism. Other traditions assert that liberation from samsara is merely the beginning of real spiritual life and beyond nirvana, activities continue, but are no longer of a worldly nature. Both sides agree on the phenomenon of evolution/reincarnation.

Paul, representing six day special creation, contended against Greek Atomists and Stoics, representatives of Cosmic Egg theories (Big Bang), vast ages, universal life force, void, atoms, evolution, etc. And of course they mocked, ridiculed, and derided him unmercifully.

The framework behind this very ancient way of thinking is naturalism: things made themselves. Naturalism is like a leopard. Its' spots cannot be changed even by modern Christians who espouse the Big Bang, billions of years, unfolding processes, etc.

When Peter prophesied about the "scoffers" in "the last days" who claim that "everything goes on as it has since the beginning of creation" (2 Peter 3:4) he is speaking of modern people who willingly reject six day, special creation in preference of ancient ways of thinking revised and revamped for our own age.

If God is really Who He said He is, if He is the God Who revealed Himself to man through Jesus Christ, then He can call everything into existence in six literal days, bring about a virgin birth, resurrect Himself from death, ascend unto Heaven, for all of these things are very simple matters.

The real issue behind objections to special creation is what kind of God one believes in. There is an amazing inconsistency to allow that He created in six days that occur at the end of billions of years of evolutionary process. This means that possibly millions of creatures lived and died long before man arrived on the scene, making God the author of death rather than the fall, the sin of Adam.

If God cannot call or sing creation into existence in six literal days then He is not much of a God.

"n the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2He was in the beginning with God.…" John 1:1

Dr. Arnold G. Fruchtenbaum is a messianic Jew and one of the foremost authorities on the nation of Israel, Judaism and Messianic prophecies. In his study of what is known theologically as Messianic Christology Fruchtenbaum surveys all of the messianic prophecies in the Hebrew Scriptures which were fulfilled at the First Coming of Messiah. In Appendix 10 he summarizes all messianic prophecies which have been studied. A few of them are:

Genesis 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

He would be human: Gen. 3:15

He would be both God and man (Messiah is Jehovah): Gen. 3:15; Isaiah 7:14; Jeremiah 23:5-6; Micah 5:2; Zechariah 12:10 & 13:7; Psalm 80:17;1 Chronicles 17:10-14

He would remove the curse due to Adam's fall Gen. 5:21-29

He would be the son of God Psalm 2:7-12

He would be full of the Holy Spirit Isaiah 11:1-2; 42:1-4; 61:1-28

He would appear before 70 A.D. Gen. 49:10; Isaiah 7:14, 8:9-10, 9:6-7; Zechariah 11:1-17; 1 Chronicles 17:10-14; Daniel 9:24-27

He would be rejected at first Isaiah 49:1-3, 52:13-53:12; Zechariah 11:1-17, 12:10; Psalms 22 & 110:1-7

He would only be accepted by a small believing remnant of people Zechariah 11:1-7

The Word is all powerful. Calling creation into existence in six literal days is a simple matter for Him.

toric 6 day creation. It's important that we understand that these men weren't primitive, unscientific goat-herders but rather came from backgrounds of evolutionary pantheism and pagan animism thus were intimately familiar with much of what passes for modern science Many people today believe that modern science has proven the earth to be billions of years old, and that every living thing descended from a single cell which itself is the result of chance combination of chemicals.

60 posted on 03/12/2014 8:58:31 AM PDT by spirited irish
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