Posted on 01/24/2014 8:50:18 AM PST by fishtank
That's ridiculous.
Hundreds of years ago the current scientific paradigm was Biblical Creation. And it held up because Europeans had only seen a limited numbers of animals.
When you only know of a 100 types of animals you can imagine them all on a big boat.
The problem was first traveling and finding hundreds of thousands more, that sunk the Ark,
The new scientific paradigm became evolution.
Then ya got fossils and radiocarbon dating and those hundreds of thousands are not going back on the Ark.
What makes evolutionists serious and modern Creationists frauds is exact what Creationists cite as proof of creationism, that evolutionists disagree with one another and disprove each others theories.
And evolution stops being the paradigm when something better comes along.
Creationists can have no theories to compete as its dogma.
So they play silly games
Half-truths are the most seductive kind of lies.
RE :”I don't see you ridiculing belief in the “virgin birth” anywhere. That violates the laws of science too, you know. Or is that “different?”
When Creationist propose teaching “virgin birth” in biology science class and claim its not religion but biology I will ridicule that idea too, but right now I am having enough fun with this.
In other words, you don't ever intend to ridicule that particular idea because you believe in it yourself. Some "scientist" you are.
Do you also believe that Mary made the sun dance in Portugal in 1917? Why did it dance there and not anywhere else?
No, creationism isn't science. Neither is evolutionism (biological or cosmic) for the simple reason that cosmogony is outside the purview of science altogether. Most creationists have to claim "creationism isn't religion" because they come out of mindset that separates "religion" from other facets of life. There is no such separation. Neither is there any "religious freedom" to worship a false "gxd." Religion is not in fact a subjective aspect of ethnocultural folklore; it is in fact like mathematics, meaning objectively true and factual and excluding all claims that disagree with it. But so long as FReepers and American conservatives accept the subjectivism of the Protestant (and to an extent, chrstian, worldview) they will be claiming that "creation isn't religion" and that everyone has the "right" to worship or not worship anything. Fortunately, I reject all such subjectivistic nonsense. Children should be taught religion in the classrooms and all nations should recognize the True G-d--formally.
Before closing, I note the almost stereotypical cruelty with which you make fun of creationists while studiously avoiding all other supernatural phenomena, real or alleged. Aside from the fact that you obviously believe that the events of the first eleven chapters of Genesis are somehow "uniquely impossible" in a way no other supernatural event is, there is the contributing factor that poor rural Southern whites (the "only people in the world who believe in creationism," as everybody "knows") are the only safe target for such scorn in the entire world. I would be tempted to assume you single them out because you are a gutless coward who doesn't have the 'ovnayim to take on anyone else, but your cute little "joke" about Tevat Noach marks you as an anti-Semite as well.
Ironically, there is a war over CHaZa"L vs. science currently being waged in the frum Jewish world. It swirls around this book, if anyone is interested.
I am free to believe what I want and so are you, but the reason its not taught in biology class is it has nothing to do with human biology.
No, they claim its not religion when they know full well it is religion, just like you know it.
Because they see evolution as a threat to Christianity(atheists help feed that fallacy too) .
That is all Creationism is all about.
Its whole foundation is a lie, so all it can produce is other lies. Its Blasphemy in that sense.
You're a hypocrite. You think people should be free to believe in the "virgin birth" but not free to believe in the events of Genesis 1-11. No biology class teaches that the "virgin birth" never happened, but every biology class teaches that the events of Genesis 1-11 didn't happen. As you well know.
But you're missing the point: the whole notion of "science" as representing "reality" and "faith" representing man's "ultimate questions" via profound but man-created "allegories" is mistaken. G-d is the Ultimate Source of Truth, not a "santa claus" who spews harmless little platitudes as a "symbol" of some kind. But so long as conservatives defend "religious freedom" (ie, that there really is no one true religion and that we're all just groping) this split is going to be with us.
You chrstians believe that G-d could (chas vechalilah!) set aside the unalterable rules of nature to produce a male human child without male seed, yet you turn right around and claim that G-d absolutely could not have created a fully completed world in an instant and then set it in motion.
Par for the course.
Because they see evolution as a threat to Christianity(atheists help feed that fallacy too) . That is all Creationism is all about.
Its whole foundation is a lie, so all it can produce is other lies. Its Blasphemy in that sense.
You're not getting anything I've said, are you?
Creationism is religion because all cosmogony is religion. Science has no access to the powers of G-d which created the world. It has no business teaching any cosmogonical theory whatsoever. It should only teach how the world before us operates, not how it came into existence when there were no "natural laws" whatsoever to govern anything.
The Torah exclusively be taught and acknowledged by all because the Torah is uniquely true and excludes all rivals. Period.
I will go even further, Creationists are weak in faith.
They demand proof that the Bible is true, even if they have to manufacture it.
Its really a sin.
No, that's the opposite of what I said.
They are free to believe both as should be.
However they should not be claiming both are borne out by proof, not only is that an affront to logic but its a affront to Christianity which is all about faith.
Creationism is Blasphemy
They demand proof that the Bible is true, even if they have to manufacture it.
Its really a sin.
Since you refuse to respond to a single point I have made, I am through with you. I can only shake my head in wonder that your co-religionists on this site who claim to reject evolution and higher criticism allow stuff like yours to be posted unchallenged. But that's their problem.
I sincerely hope that one day someone pours the same ridicule and scorn on your cherished supernatural beliefs (about things which simply could not have possibly happened) that you reserve for poor rural white Southerners.
How about I close by invoking RaMBa"N: your "virgin birth" is impossible and only someone to whom it was taught since infancy could conceivably believe in such a ridiculous and impossible thing.
This has got to be the strangest thread I’ve ever read. You obviously don’t realize that evolution is a cosmogony, and is just as much faith-based as creationism is.
But to call faith in what the Bible says a “sin,” is really over the top. As a Christian, I believe that calling God a liar is a sin. That’s what you’re doing by believing evolution over what the Bible plainly says.
But you’re right that you’re free to have faith in what you want, and I’m free to have faith in what I want. We’ll see how that works out for you in the hereafter. Just don’t try to clothe your faith in science falsely so called, as the Apostle Paul spoke of in 1 Timothy 6:20.
RE :”You're a hypocrite. You think people should be free to believe in the “virgin birth” but not free to believe in the events of Genesis 1-11.”
No, that's the opposite of what I said.
Not it isn't. It's exactly what you said, and what you say below when you call creationism a "blasphemy."
They are free to believe both as should be.
If you actually maintain that you can defend the right to believe in creationism while calling it a "blasphemy," then you have mental problems.
However they should not be claiming both are borne out by proof, not only is that an affront to logic but its a affront to Christianity which is all about faith.
With this kind of twisted thinking, chrstianity deserves to be affronted.
You reject Genesis 1-11 because there is no scientific proof (or because there is scientific evidence against it), yet you accept the "virgin birth" on "faith." What would be required to prove to you that the "virgin birth" could not have possibly happened? If I say it violates the laws of nature you will simply dishonestly claim that in this case "gxd" made an "exception" and "set aside" the laws of nature. Yet the very notion that the Creation might not have happened in accordance with any natural law or process known to science automatically disqualifies its very possibility to you. Are you being inconsistent just to get a rise out of people, or are you really that dense?
Creationism is Blasphemy
Which you wrote just above anyone should be free to believe. So what is it? Is it "blasphemy," or is it something anyone "should be free to believe in?"
Just how is someone supposed to be "free to believe" something when every school one attends is telling him that this thing he is "free to believe" never happened? Just how many of your co-religionists would believe in "miracles" like the "virgin birth" or the alleged resurrection of Chr*st if every school they ever attended had taught them that it had never really happened?
Your "freedom to believe" in the "virgin birth" or any other real or alleged miracle is exactly equal to your "freedom to believe" that Genesis 1-11 is literally, historically true. Because the argument against all of them is absolutely identical: "it didn't happen because it couldn't have."
No, I didnt say that at all.
I said they should be free (and respected) for believing the Bible,
but that (scientific) Creationism is Blasphemy.
I never supported believing creationists., I might as well say to believe Obama if I did that.
First, that person is calling all the great Saints and Doctors of the Universal Church - like St. Therese of the Little Flower and St. Maximilian Kolbe - sinners and blasphemers.
Second, that person is apparently judging the sanctity, honesty and intelligence of those Saints and Doctors.
The first activity looks an awful lot like detraction, the second like pride.
It might be time to pump the brakes.
I didn't say that, Creationists favorate game is creating straw men then knocking them down. I said the opposite.
Creationists three contradictory faces of deceit:
Face 1 : Creationists are scientists. Creationism is science not religion.
This is where they claim that Creationism has nothing to do with Religion, its pure science. And they show those pictures of miniature model they created of a big boat, and molds of lizards from ancient ruins of to prove it. It’s a product of evidence.
Face 2 : Creationists are the true Christians and those who disagree with us Creationists cannot be real Christians.
Then on Sunday when they go to church they argue the opposite, that to be a Christian you must be a Creationist because that is proof of your faith. If you don’t believe its weak faith in Christianity.
Face 3 : Neither is science. We never said that Creationism is science
Lets not talk about Noah’s Ark or how all the animals living today were on it in twos and all got off it together and all hiked all the way around the world safely, just by walking. NO, Lets talk about those missing bones instead. Obviously neither is science or we wouldn’t be complaining.
I'm not interested in denying the Christianity of Darwinians - I'm aware of Paul's admonition concerning weaker brethren, I certainly won't condemn them - but I am interested in defending the integrity of the great Saints and Doctors.
Calling their faith in the historical verity of Genesis "blasphemy" is simply beyond the pale.
I'll side with St. Thomas Aquinas and Padre Pio.
You stick with Peter Singer and Margaret Sanger if you prefer.
BS, Paul never came up with the dishonest crap that you Creationists do.
He believed, that's called faith.
Creationists try to manufacture physical proof to deceive people. Conversion by deceit.
Paul never did that. He had faith in the Bible.
You shouldn't.
They were not there anymore than we were, so they can't know what happened.
Honest thoughtful skepticism is healthy.
However your question alone poo-poos the snake oil salesmen Creationists fairy tale claims that there was no millions of years ago.
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