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Chuck Smith, founder of Calvary Chapel, dies at 86
Christianity Today ^ | 10/3/13 | G. Jeffrey MacDonald

Posted on 10/03/2013 9:24:43 AM PDT by hoagy62

Chuck Smith, the evangelical pastor whose outreach to hippies in the 1960s helped transform worship styles in American Christianity and fueled the rise of the Calvary Chapel movement, died Thursday, Oct. 3, 2013, after a battle with lung cancer. He was 86. Diagnosed in 2011, Smith continued to preach and oversee administration at Calvary Chapel Costa Mesa (California), where he'd been pastor since 1965. In 2012, he established a 21-member leadership council to oversee the Calvary Church Association, a fellowship of some 1,600 like-minded congregations in the United States and abroad.

(Excerpt) Read more at christianitytoday.com ...


TOPICS: News/Current Events; US: California
KEYWORDS: calvarychapel; chucksmith; evangelicals; hippies; megachurch; obituary; pastor; religion
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1 posted on 10/03/2013 9:24:43 AM PDT by hoagy62
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To: hoagy62

..another great man of God being ushered into glory—see you soon Pastor Chuck...


2 posted on 10/03/2013 9:27:06 AM PDT by WalterSkinner ( In Memory of My Father--WWII Vet and Patriot 1926-2007)
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To: hoagy62
Absent from the body, now in the presence of his Lord, Jesus Christ.

I thank almighty God for saving Pastor Chuck and for his faithful ministry. May God richly bless and comfort his family.

Thanks Pastor Chuck... see you soon

3 posted on 10/03/2013 9:30:16 AM PDT by Jmouse007 (Deliver us from this evil, in Jesus name, amen.)
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To: hoagy62

Amazing what this man did through the tools GOD called him to use.


4 posted on 10/03/2013 9:32:27 AM PDT by 11th Commandment (http://www.thirty-thousand.org/)
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To: Jmouse007
Thanks Pastor Chuck... see you soon

Roger that. I was attending Calvary Chapel in my area too, He will be missed, but we will see him again.

5 posted on 10/03/2013 9:34:42 AM PDT by Mark17 (Chicago Blackhawks: Stanley Cup champions 2010, 2013. Vietnam Veteran, 70-71)
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To: Gamecock; HarleyD

Ping!


6 posted on 10/03/2013 9:35:58 AM PDT by Alex Murphy (Just a common, ordinary, simple savior of America's destiny.)
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To: hoagy62; LUV W
From the article:

"Yet it was his openness to new cultural styles, including laid-back music and funky fashions of California's early surfer scene, that helped him reach young idealists and inspire a trend toward seeker-sensitive congregations...his impact can be seen in every church service that has electric guitar-driven worship, hip casually-dressed pastors, and 40-minute sermons consisting of verse-by-verse Bible expositions peppered with pop-culture references and counterculture slang."

Rest in peace, servant of God ... but I wish you hadn't helped wreck traditional worship. Still, God's will be done.

7 posted on 10/03/2013 9:40:02 AM PDT by Colonel_Flagg (My PV2 is my hero.)
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To: Colonel_Flagg

God rest his soul. I agree with your assessment, FRiend.


8 posted on 10/03/2013 9:42:24 AM PDT by LUV W (All my heroes wear camos! Thank you David, Michael, Chris Txradioguy, JJ, CMS, & ALL of you heroes!)
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To: hoagy62

A good and godly man - thanks for your faithfulness sir.


9 posted on 10/03/2013 9:47:29 AM PDT by high info voter
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To: Colonel_Flagg

That was the pipeline that brought Greg Laurie to the Lord. God Bless you Pastor Smith. I heard many a great sermon from you and Greg Laurie.


10 posted on 10/03/2013 9:48:39 AM PDT by notpoliticallycorewrecked (Government shut down? Call me when the government shuts UP!)
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To: hoagy62

He obeyed God. It resulted in much fruit. Wonderful man who made you smile just by being around him. God is good!


11 posted on 10/03/2013 9:56:18 AM PDT by bubbacluck (America 180)
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To: LUV W

I wouldn’t say Chuck Smith single-handedly “wrecked traditional worship”. Because all he did in that respect was act as ONE of the visionaries to incorporate Contemporary music into services for Contemporary worshipers...this would have occurred without him anyway, because it always has.

Music changed radically in the 1960’s so the transition was more of a shock to traditionalists in the Church then. A lot of nonsense about certain types of music being “of the Devil” was foolishly published.

I’m sure there are still churches around that will serve the needs of those who only want traditional hymns in the services, but don’t knock Pastor Chuck in this respect because he reached the youth and the lost were saved in a mighty way.

I am very grateful that Chuck Smith had ears to hear.


12 posted on 10/03/2013 10:09:20 AM PDT by Gasshog (Welcome to the United States of Stupidos!)
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To: hoagy62

We have several Calvary Community Chapels here in Minnesota, including one nearby in Saint Cloud. We’ve been looking at going to a Sunday service soon, I think we will.


13 posted on 10/03/2013 10:09:37 AM PDT by MN.Gruber06 (A besieged constituent in the beautiful Star of the North. Vote OUT Franken, Klobuchar and Dayton.)
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To: Colonel_Flagg

Rest in peace, servant of God ... but I wish you hadn’t helped wreck traditional worship. Still, God’s will be done.

...amen to that...I know the fellow had a godly heart, but the concept of ‘seeker-sensitive congregations’ has led to a lax laity more concerned with its own comfort than with worship...summer masses in a typical suburban Catholic Church are filled with people who appear headed to the beach for a day of fun...


14 posted on 10/03/2013 10:14:36 AM PDT by IrishBrigade
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To: hoagy62

I can count on one hand the men who gained my ultimate trust. Chuck Smith was one of them.


15 posted on 10/03/2013 10:20:33 AM PDT by wolfman
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To: hoagy62

A great man.

Pastor Greg Laurie was brought to the Lord under his ministry.


16 posted on 10/03/2013 10:26:07 AM PDT by Do Not Make Fun Of His Ears ("There's always free cheese in a mousetrap." - Marine Col. Peter Martino)
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To: IrishBrigade
...amen to that...I know the fellow had a godly heart, but the concept of ‘seeker-sensitive congregations’ has led to a lax laity more concerned with its own comfort than with worship...summer masses in a typical suburban Catholic Church are filled with people who appear headed to the beach for a day of fun...

Thank you for this post. I get that God shouldn't be put in a box, but I miss reverence. I miss the majesty of worship and I miss God being first in some congregations I once attended.

17 posted on 10/03/2013 10:29:01 AM PDT by Colonel_Flagg (My PV2 is my hero.)
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To: hoagy62

R.I.P. and well done! We will miss you Pastor Chuck.


18 posted on 10/03/2013 10:45:56 AM PDT by j_guru
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To: Colonel_Flagg

but I wish you hadn’t helped wreck traditional worship. Still, God’s will be done.


Worship should be an outpouring from the soul. Whether traditional or contemporary music is played should not be a factor.


19 posted on 10/03/2013 10:56:15 AM PDT by Joshua (:z)
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To: hoagy62

Lou Graham of Foreigner is part of Calvary Chapel.


20 posted on 10/03/2013 10:59:17 AM PDT by Joshua (:z)
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To: Joshua
Worship should be an outpouring from the soul. Whether traditional or contemporary music is played should not be a factor.

For me, and for many others my age, music reaches and prepares the soul for worship. For us, seeker-centered churches and worship teams remove the focus of worship from where it should properly be located, which is on Jesus Christ.

21 posted on 10/03/2013 11:02:11 AM PDT by Colonel_Flagg (My PV2 is my hero.)
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To: hoagy62

The world has lost a great modern day Christian leader.

God bless you Chuck, and may your legacy live forever.


22 posted on 10/03/2013 11:16:24 AM PDT by OneVike (I'm just a Christian waiting to go home)
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To: IrishBrigade

Calvary Chapel that Chukc began is not a seeker sensitive ministry my friend.

All cClvery Chapels teach from the Bible, book by book, verse by verse.

Maybe you should attend one before you accuse a church of being seeker sensitive just because they use music the masses understand.

Imagine the hate that was targeted towards the early church leaders who used bar hall songs in church. All they did was change the words, but the music was from songs sung in bars by drunks.

Remember, music is universal, it is the words incorporated in the music that makes it a worship song, not the instruments or the tune.


23 posted on 10/03/2013 11:22:59 AM PDT by OneVike (I'm just a Christian waiting to go home)
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To: OneVike

http://christianity.stackexchange.com/questions/6877/did-luther-really-use-bar-tunes-for-his-hymns


24 posted on 10/03/2013 12:26:44 PM PDT by hiho hiho
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To: hiho hiho

OK, so Luther did not, however I never mentioned who did.

So you pointing out that Luther did not means nothing.

It still does not change the facts that many did.

I am, sure Luther would appreciate you defending his name.

Next time you can do so when someone expressly says something about him which is wrong.

I sir, did not.


25 posted on 10/03/2013 1:13:31 PM PDT by OneVike (I'm just a Christian waiting to go home)
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To: Colonel_Flagg

I like said there are churches out there to meet the needs of different sensibilities.

I do believe the Levites were worship-leaders of sorts for God’s people back in the days. There are many kinds of expressions of worship that are found in Scripture and pleasing to God.


26 posted on 10/03/2013 1:28:07 PM PDT by Gasshog (Welcome to the United States of Stupidos!)
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To: OneVike

All I did was post a link!

Could you (politely) inform me as to who these “early church leaders who used bar hall songs in church” were?

Certainly wasn’t John Calvin.


27 posted on 10/03/2013 1:37:09 PM PDT by hiho hiho
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To: hiho hiho
Certainly wasn’t John Calvin.

Could have been. Bar music adapted by Reform pastors, churches, hymn writers were not drinking songs. Bar music is a form of medieval German poety.
28 posted on 10/03/2013 3:35:19 PM PDT by righttackle44 (Take scalps. Leave the bodies as a warning.)
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To: Gasshog

There are indeed, which is why I posted about God not being put in a box. It’s just that so much of today’s modern stuff, brought about in part by Chuck Smith and the Jesus People movement he helped create, is crowding out a style of worship that a lot of people grew up with, honor, and in fact adore.

And if you read Revelation 5 closely, you’ll see that worship in heaven is spoken, not sung. So I’m not sure how to handle that, quite frankly.


29 posted on 10/03/2013 4:29:52 PM PDT by Colonel_Flagg (My PV2 is my hero.)
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To: righttackle44; OneVike
It is interesting that the leaders of the Reformation were leery of the organ. The current trend is away from organs because they are too "churchy." The Reformers were fearful that they were too secular!

Like it or not, the Reformers were trying to purify the church more than make it relevant to the popular culture.

From here — http://voices.yahoo.com/what-effects-did-reformation-church-music-2066197.html

At the beginning of the reformation the organ's use in the church service was without question. It was associated with current secularism and street programs. Luther rarely directly addressed the issue; however, he did express some consent against it. As mentioned earlier, Zwingli's followers tore down many organs in churches as protest. Although Zwingli never directly supported these acts, he did not say anything against it either. For the most part, the Lutheran church left the issue of the organ as adiaphorous, that is neither approved nor forbidden. The primary objection that existed over the issue was that no love songs were played upon it and only psalms and sacred songs were played on the organ. Also, that it was not played in such a length or autocracy that it imposed on the parts of the service. Interestingly enough, it was saw in both Protestant and Catholic church that a familiar vocal piece that was played alone on the organ could take the place of a vocalized song because of the familiarity.

Something that some found offensive about the organ was a soloistic performance on the organ. It was saw as an “objectionable assertion of individuality, inappropriate to the ideas of the priesthood of all believers and of the congregationally centered lay service.(Douglas, 107).” Also, the use of secular melodic ideas on the organ was found to be offensive in the church. In the mind set of the people of that day, certain pieces were aloud, and even rose to liturgical service. Certain forms of secular music just were not admitted in the church service. It was these pieces that found offense in the hearts of the congregation when played on the organ. So, certain popular melodies that would be recognized as offensive could not be translated into worship songs, even if a new text were applied to the melody(Music in the Renaissance).

30 posted on 10/03/2013 4:52:30 PM PDT by hiho hiho
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To: Colonel_Flagg

For me, and for many others my age, music reaches and prepares the soul for worship. For us, seeker-centered churches and worship teams remove the focus of worship from where it should properly be located, which is on Jesus Christ.


As a former worship leader in CC I can assure you our intent was to bring the people into communion with Christ, w/o being the focus of attention. We always had those who complained the drums were too loud or the guitars distracting. We also had those who entered into that special place and had no idea what songs were played. There are still congregations where the “old rugged cross” is played on a piano. If this is what people want, fine. I just find it offensive that you feel contemporary music has “wrecked” worship. I don’t know how old you are, but I’m 62 and I enjoy contemporary worship and my uninspired NIV bible.. 8-)

there are still


31 posted on 10/03/2013 5:36:18 PM PDT by Joshua (:z)
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To: hiho hiho

It is interesting that the leaders of the Reformation were leery of the organ. The current trend is away from organs because they are too “churchy.” The Reformers were fearful that they were too secular!
Like it or not, the Reformers were trying to purify the church more than make it relevant to the popular culture.


Which is all a form of legalism.
The church was purified some 2000 years ago on a cross at Calvary. No further human purification was needed.
The problem is that man can’t grasp the concept of grace.
For years we have had the struggle between those who believe the church needs to be more contemporary and those who believith thou needeth to go back to the 16th century. Both foolish attempts of man doing what he thinks is right and the main reason the church is such a mess today.


32 posted on 10/03/2013 5:56:29 PM PDT by Joshua (:z)
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To: Joshua
I'm in my late forties. This is the kind of song that bothers me.

DESERT SONG (HILLSONG)
This is my prayer in the desert
When all that's within me feels dry
This is my prayer in my hunger and need
My God is a God who provides

Verse 2:
And this is my prayer in the fire
In weakness or trial or pain
There is a faith proved
Of more worth than gold
So refine me Lord through the flames

Chorus:
And I will bring praise
I will bring praise
No weapon formed against me shall remain
I will rejoice
I will declare
God is my victory and He is here

Verse 3:
And this is my prayer in the battle
When triumph is still on it's way
I am a conqueror and co-heir with Christ
So firm on His promise I'll stand

Bridge:
All of my life
In every season
You are still God
I have a reason to sing
I have a reason to worship

Verse 4:
This is my prayer in the harvest
When favor and providence flow
I know I'm filled to be emptied again
The seed I've received I will sow

Let's count. I count 24 personal pronouns in this song, as compared to eight mentions of God. It's more than fair to ask who this song is for, who it's about, and who it really serves. This song is about the seeker, not the Savior, and it's far from the only one in the book.

You're offended? Sorry, but I can't help that. And I won't apologize for it. Contemporary music hasn't completely wrecked all worship. But it's certainly ruined mine, as I'm not willing to move my family away from longtime friends we've made in our church.

But that's okay. You win. I lose. And for traditionalists like me, heartfelt worship loses too.

33 posted on 10/03/2013 6:49:29 PM PDT by Colonel_Flagg (My PV2 is my hero.)
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To: hiho hiho

I looked into the whole idea of bar hall music being used but with different words, and i must admit that there are many reports of the type of music used, but nothing about any of the songs being written for bar hall music.

So, unless I find otherwise I must admit you are correct and I am wrong.

Now, as for modern music being written and sang for church services. I still find no problem with it.

As usual, it is the words of the songs, not the melody, nor the instrument used with the songs that makes the difference.

we must all find that which we feel is proper for our worshiping the Lord.

Calvary Chapel ministries is the most conservative and true to the Word of God than any other Evangelical ministries on this planet. That is why they are attacked by the left so much.

I do not know of any other ministry, who’s followers know the word of God as well as those who attend Calvary Ministries. I would put their understanding up against any other Christian ministry on this planet.

When it comes down to it, the teaching is what convicts the soul and leads one to understand God, not the form of worship music.

Expository teaching of the Word, book by book, verse by verse is the only way the Word should be taught, not a knee jerk topical type of teaching that is influenced by the events of the day.

I grew up going to both Lutheran and Catholic churches, never have I heard either ministry teach the word as Calvary does.


34 posted on 10/03/2013 8:08:36 PM PDT by OneVike (I'm just a Christian waiting to go home)
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To: OneVike

There’s a good part of me that thinks that we should eliminate all music from worship services. (Another part thinks otherwise!)

I have often heard the argument that it is solely about the words, but it really doesn’t follow through. As humans we have very strong associations with tunes and styles.

Singing the Doxology to “Roll Out the Barrel” simply won’t work. Singing “The Lord’s Prayer” to a rap beat probably won’t be accepted either. So, there are some sort of universal boundaries.

I suppose this really boils down to the question, should worship music be “sacred” (completely isolated from any “worldly” associations)? (This may not make anyone happy.)


35 posted on 10/03/2013 8:32:38 PM PDT by hiho hiho
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To: hiho hiho
Maybe you should read what the Lord has to say about singing praise songs before you lean toward thinking we shouldn't remove all music from the worship service.

Not only does god want us to praise him with songs, but he advises us to us musical instruments while doing so. Remember even in heaven we will be singing songs to the Lord, Revelations 19:1-3,
After these things I heard[1] a loud voice of a great multitude in heaven, saying, "Alleluia! Salvation and glory and honor and power belong to the Lord our God! For true and righteous are His judgments, because He has judged the great harlot who corrupted the earth with her fornication; and He has avenged on her the blood of His servants shed by her." Again they said, "Alleluia! Her smoke rises up forever and ever!"

Just check out all the times we are told to sing and play instruments to the Lord.

Psalm 100:1-2
A Psalm for giving thanks. Make a joyful noise to the Lord, all the earth! Serve the Lord with gladness! Come into his presence with singing!

Colossians 3:16
Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly, teaching and admonishing one another in all wisdom, singing psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, with thankfulness in your hearts to God.

Psalm 95:1-2
Oh come, let us sing to the Lord; let us make a joyful noise to the rock of our salvation! Let us come into his presence with thanksgiving; let us make a joyful noise to him with songs of praise!

Ephesians 5:19
Addressing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody to the Lord with your heart,

James 5:13
Is anyone among you suffering? Let him pray. Is anyone cheerful? Let him sing praise.

Psalm 150:1-6
Praise the Lord! Praise God in his sanctuary; praise him in his mighty heavens! Praise him for his mighty deeds; praise him according to his excellent greatness! Praise him with trumpet sound; praise him with lute and harp! Praise him with tambourine and dance; praise him with strings and pipe! Praise him with sounding cymbals; praise him with loud clashing cymbals! ...

Psalm 147:1
Praise the Lord! For it is good to sing praises to our God; for it is pleasant, and a song of praise is fitting.

1 Corinthians 14:15
What am I to do? I will pray with my spirit, but I will pray with my mind also; I will sing praise with my spirit, but I will sing with my mind also.

Psalm 13:6
I will sing to the Lord, because he has dealt bountifully with me.

Psalm 95:1
Oh come, let us sing to the Lord; let us make a joyful noise to the rock of our salvation!

Zephaniah 3:17
The Lord your God is in your midst, a mighty one who will save; he will rejoice over you with gladness; he will quiet you by his love; he will exult over you with loud singing.

Acts 16:25
About midnight Paul and Silas were praying and singing hymns to God, and the prisoners were listening to them,

Psalm 71:8
My mouth is filled with your praise, and with your glory all the day.

Psalm 144:9
I will sing a new song to you, O God; upon a ten-stringed harp I will play to you,

Hebrews 2:12
Saying, “I will tell of your name to my brothers; in the midst of the congregation I will sing your praise.”

Psalm 33:3
Sing to him a new song; play skillfully on the strings, with loud shouts.

Psalm 104:33
I will sing to the Lord as long as I live; I will sing praise to my God while I have being.

Romans 15:9
And in order that the Gentiles might glorify God for his mercy. As it is written, “Therefore I will praise you among the Gentiles, and sing to your name.”

Mark 14:26
And when they had sung a hymn, they went out to the Mount of Olives.

Exodus 15:1
Then Moses and the people of Israel sang this song to the Lord, saying, “I will sing to the Lord, for he has triumphed gloriously; the horse and his rider he has thrown into the sea.

John 4:23-24
But the hour is coming, and is now here, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for the Father is seeking such people to worship him. God is spirit, and those who worship him must worship in spirit and truth.”

Matthew 26:30
And when they had sung a hymn, they went out to the Mount of Olives.

Hebrews 13:15
Through him then let us continually offer up a sacrifice of praise to God, that is, the fruit of lips that acknowledge his name.

Psalm 105:2
Sing to him, sing praises to him; tell of all his wondrous works!

Psalm 68:1-35
To the choirmaster. A Psalm of David. A Song. God shall arise, his enemies shall be scattered; and those who hate him shall flee before him! As smoke is driven away, so you shall drive them away; as wax melts before fire, so the wicked shall perish before God! But the righteous shall be glad; they shall exult before God; they shall be jubilant with joy! Sing to God, sing praises to his name; lift up a song to him who rides through the deserts; his name is the Lord; exult before him! Father of the fatherless and protector of widows is God in his holy habitation. ...

2 Samuel 6:1-23
David again gathered all the chosen men of Israel, thirty thousand. And David arose and went with all the people who were with him from Baale-judah to bring up from there the ark of God, which is called by the name of the Lord of hosts who sits enthroned on the cherubim. And they carried the ark of God on a new cart and brought it out of the house of Abinadab, which was on the hill. And Uzzah and Ahio, the sons of Abinadab, were driving the new cart, with the ark of God, and Ahio went before the ark. And David and all the house of Israel were making merry before the Lord, with songs and lyres and harps and tambourines and castanets and cymbals. ...

Isaiah 12:5
“Sing praises to the Lord, for he has done gloriously; let this be made known in all the earth.

Psalm 100:1-5
A Psalm for giving thanks. Make a joyful noise to the Lord, all the earth! Serve the Lord with gladness! Come into his presence with singing! Know that the Lord, he is God! It is he who made us, and we are his; we are his people, and the sheep of his pasture. Enter his gates with thanksgiving, and his courts with praise! Give thanks to him; bless his name! For the Lord is good; his steadfast love endures forever, and his faithfulness to all generations.

Psalm 137:1-9
By the waters of Babylon, there we sat down and wept, when we remembered Zion. On the willows there we hung up our lyres. For there our captors required of us songs, and our tormentors, mirth, saying, “Sing us one of the songs of Zion!” How shall we sing the Lord's song in a foreign land? If I forget you, O Jerusalem, let my right hand forget its skill! ...

Psalm 59:16
But I will sing of your strength; I will sing aloud of your steadfast love in the morning. For you have been to me a fortress and a refuge in the day of my distress.

John 4:23
But the hour is coming, and is now here, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for the Father is seeking such people to worship him.

John 4:24
God is spirit, and those who worship him must worship in spirit and truth.”

Micah 7:7
But as for me, I will look to the Lord; I will wait for the God of my salvation; my God will hear me.

Psalm 150:6
Let everything that has breath praise the Lord! Praise the Lord!

Psalm 47:1-9
To the choirmaster. A Psalm of the Sons of Korah. Clap your hands, all peoples! Shout to God with loud songs of joy! For the Lord, the Most High, is to be feared, a great king over all the earth. He subdued peoples under us, and nations under our feet. He chose our heritage for us, the pride of Jacob whom he loves. Selah God has gone up with a shout, the Lord with the sound of a trumpet. ...

Isaiah 42:10
Sing to the Lord a new song, his praise from the end of the earth, you who go down to the sea, and all that fills it, the coastlands and their inhabitants.

Psalm 119:105
Your word is a lamp to my feet and a light to my path.

Psalm 8:9
O Lord, our Lord, how majestic is your name in all the earth!

Exodus 15:2
The Lord is my strength and my song, and he has become my salvation; this is my God, and I will praise him, my father's God, and I will exalt him.

Psalm 9:1
To the choirmaster: according to Muth-labben. A Psalm of David. I will give thanks to the Lord with my whole heart; I will recount all of your wonderful deeds.

1 Samuel 16:23
And whenever the harmful spirit from God was upon Saul, David took the lyre and played it with his hand. So Saul was refreshed and was well, and the harmful spirit departed from him.

2 Chronicles 20:19
And the Levites, of the Kohathites and the Korahites, stood up to praise the Lord, the God of Israel, with a very loud voice.

36 posted on 10/04/2013 9:18:15 AM PDT by OneVike (I'm just a Christian waiting to go home)
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To: OneVike

Of course I agree with you, but we live in an “in your face” age. There are those who insist on introducing contemporary (some read this as secular) music styles into the church. I have witnessed “shows” akin to American Idol. It seems as though church as become yet another venue to strut your stuff.

As you are now aware, there are those who have claimed falsely that this is nothing new, all generations have pushed for contemporary music in church, causing a ruckus. This is not true outside of a few instances.

You don’t have to go very far to hear someone complain that the music in church is “too loud” or “inappropriate.” Some go with their ears plugged (or hearing aids off), others have quit or have gone elsewhere.


37 posted on 10/04/2013 9:39:08 AM PDT by hiho hiho
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To: OneVike

Of course I agree with you, but we live in an “in your face” age. There are those who insist on introducing contemporary (some read this as secular) music styles into the church. I have witnessed “shows” akin to American Idol. It seems as though church as become yet another venue to strut your stuff.

As you are now aware, there are those who have claimed falsely that this is nothing new, all generations have pushed for contemporary music in church, causing a ruckus. This is not true outside of a few instances.

You don’t have to go very far to hear someone complain that the music in church is “too loud” or “inappropriate.” Some go with their ears plugged (or hearing aids off), others have quit or have gone elsewhere.


38 posted on 10/04/2013 9:39:13 AM PDT by hiho hiho
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To: hoagy62

Radical, man!

Love Song - Little Country Church

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4bAlE3Y2MAk

Love Song - Two Hands

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qyTMn7ULJV8


39 posted on 10/04/2013 9:43:32 AM PDT by Mr Rogers (Liberals are like locusts...)
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To: hiho hiho

I don’t dissagree that some churches have become little more than shadows of the world instead of shadows of the Lord. However, to throw a blanket of guilt over all churches is wrong.

This thread was started to mourn the loss of a great teacher who in my opinion is as great a man of God as Billy Graham.

Calvary Chapels ministries is the driving force behind modern music being used in worship services, yet the worship service is but 15 to 30 minutes the service. Every Calvary Chapel follows it up with the most accurate conservative teachings from the Scriptures.

Whether it be Skip Heitzig, Greg Laury, or my local Calvary pastor Sam Allen, all of them use the same method of teaching as Chuck Smith used. They begin at the beginning of the Bible in genesis, and go through verse by verse, book by book until they reach the end of Revelations. Then they start from the beginning again.

You will not find too many ministries that teach in the exegesis style as they do. As I stated before, Christians who attend Calvary Chapels are the most knowledgeable Christians on the planet. God expects all Christians to study the word and understand it to properly defend it.

To make an issue out of the way they sing songs, or what instruments they use to sing with, is nothing more than misguided legalism. Every song they play during worship is directed towards our Lord, and all words are posted on screens for everyone to follow and learn.

I may not like some of them, but not because they are ungodly or too loud and obnoxious. Like all songs, I have the ones I prefer, the ones I really like, and the ones that just don’t move me, but they are all worthy to be sang in the presence of our Lord.

Usually the problem I have is when a worship leader seem to think it is all about them, because they will start ad-libbing their own versions of the song that no one can follow because it is different than the song they claim they are singing.

I still enjoy traditional hymns, and Southern Gospel music, but considering all music is given to us by God, it is only natural for us to dedicate all types to Him. If anyone is out of order it is the secular world using music to praise the world instead of God.

Everything in the world has been given to us, not the devil. It is man who decided to use God’s gifts to worship Satan and praise the world, not the other way around.

So when a person takes a type of music and uses it to praise God, it is the natural way it was supposed to be.

I am reminded about the time David danced in the street wearing only his undergarment playing the lute and singing to God as the Arc of the Covenant was brought into the city. His own wife said he was making a fool out of himself, but David was singing and playing to the Lord.

We are not supposed to be somber and quiet when praising God, we are to be loud as we sing his praises, but we are so worried that the world will say we are making a fool of ourselves that we tame it down and think we need to be real quiet and reserved.

So sing, reserve nothing when praising and singing to God, and He will bless you very openly, but be ashamed to do so in a public and open way, and he will be ashamed of you in return.


40 posted on 10/04/2013 10:33:57 AM PDT by OneVike (I'm just a Christian waiting to go home)
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To: Colonel_Flagg

Let’s count. I count 24 personal pronouns in this song, as compared to eight mentions of God. It’s more than fair to ask who this song is for, who it’s about, and who it really serves. This song is about the seeker, not the Savior, and it’s far from the only one in the book.
——————————————————————————————Have you ever gone through the Psalms and counted the “personal pronouns”? (Hint: most of those verses you quoted come directly from the Psalms, as do many contemporary worship verses.)

Might be a good idea to drop into a CC and check them out. Skip the worship if it upsets you but at least catch the verse by verse teachings. It would do you a world of good.

Please don’t respond to me, brother. I’ve never found debating legalists to be productive.

Ask, “SEEK”, knock, and it will be given to you. You seem more in line with the Pharisee’s than with the bride of Christ.


41 posted on 10/04/2013 7:32:47 PM PDT by Joshua (:z)
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To: Colonel_Flagg

Let’s count. I count 24 personal pronouns in this song, as compared to eight mentions of God. It’s more than fair to ask who this song is for, who it’s about, and who it really serves. This song is about the seeker, not the Savior, and it’s far from the only one in the book.
——————————————————————————————Have you ever gone through the Psalms and counted the “personal pronouns”? (Hint: most of those verses you quoted come directly from the Psalms, as do many contemporary worship verses.)

Might be a good idea to drop into a CC and check them out. Skip the worship if it upsets you but at least catch the verse by verse teachings. It would do you a world of good.

Please don’t respond to me, brother. I’ve never found debating legalists to be productive.

Ask, “SEEK”, knock, and it will be given to you. You seem more in line with the Pharisee’s than with the bride of Christ.


42 posted on 10/05/2013 9:30:48 AM PDT by Joshua (:z)
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To: Joshua; Colonel_Flagg; OneVike

I was rather taken back by your treatment of Colonel_Flagg. You forbade him to respond, so I will instead.

Regarding personal pronouns in the Psalms, it is not about the grammar, but the focus.

The LORD is my shepherd; I shall not want.
HE maketh me to lie down in green pastures: HE leadeth me beside the still waters.
HE restoreth my soul: HE leadeth me in the paths of righteousness for HIS NAMES’S sake.
Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil: for THOU art with me; THY rod and THY staff they comfort me.
THOU preparest a table before me in the presence of mine enemies: THOU anointest my head with oil; my cup runneth over.
Surely goodness and mercy shall follow me all the days of my life: and I will dwell in the house of the LORD for ever.

Although heavy on personal pronouns, it is quite different from:

DESERT SONG (HILLSONG)
This is my prayer in the desert
When all that’s within me feels dry
This is my prayer in my hunger and need
My God is a God who provides

Verse 2:
And this is my prayer in the fire
In weakness or trial or pain
There is a faith proved
Of more worth than gold
So refine me Lord through the flames

Chorus:
And I will bring praise
I will bring praise
No weapon formed against me shall remain
I will rejoice
I will declare
God is my victory and He is here

Verse 3:
And this is my prayer in the battle
When triumph is still on it’s way
I am a conqueror and co-heir with Christ
So firm on His promise I’ll stand

Bridge:
All of my life
In every season
You are still God
I have a reason to sing
I have a reason to worship

Verse 4:
This is my prayer in the harvest
When favor and providence flow
I know I’m filled to be emptied again
The seed I’ve received I will sow

No one is going to take away your MTV. But please leave a place at the table for those of us that are concerned about the aggressive and pervasive onslaught of secularism (pop culture) that has not only invaded our lives, but our Sunday mornings too.

I avoid pop culture (read secularism) as much as possible, not because I am a “legalist” but because I have no desire to fill my mind with this folly, and it now no longer appeals to me.

If the CC teaches that those who disagree on non-doctrinal issues are Pharisees, than I’ll pass on your invitation.


43 posted on 10/06/2013 10:03:54 AM PDT by hiho hiho
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To: hiho hiho

No one is going to take away your MTV. But please leave a place at the table for those of us that are concerned about the aggressive and pervasive onslaught of secularism (pop culture) that has not only invaded our lives, but our Sunday mornings too.

I avoid pop culture (read secularism) as much as possible, not because I am a “legalist” but because I have no desire to fill my mind with this folly, and it now no longer appeals to me.

If the CC teaches that those who disagree on non-doctrinal issues are Pharisees, than I’ll pass on your invitation.


First of all I didn’t forbade him anything.
I was informing him that debating him was a waste of time.

He implied contemporary worship was “destroying traditional worship”

You refer to contemporary worship as MTV, secular, and pop culture, in other words, it’s of the world.

Neither one of you used the word “demonic”, but I’m sure that’s what you feel.

You and the Colonel can worship as you please, where you please. The body of Christ is big and varied,

I find it offensive when both of you feel it necessary to judge congregations that don’t fit into what you believe to be correct.

The Pharisees basically thought like you and the good Colonel and did the same thing. Sorry if that offends you.

The two of you have described CC worship as: MTV, pop culture, aggressive and pervasive secularism invading Sunday morning, a destroyer of classic worship. Have I missed any?

Don’t sell yourself short Hiho, you are a legalist along with the Colonel. I would bet the farm that both of you are also KJV-only. Good ol` 1611 King Jimmy, inspired by god don’t you know?

Feel free to comment and tell the Colonel to do the same.
Let me take the time now to apologize for not reading or responding to any of it.


44 posted on 10/06/2013 6:21:14 PM PDT by Joshua (how you try to portrait)
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To: hiho hiho; Colonel_Flagg; Joshua
OK, I guess you pinged me also because, like Joshua, I defend Chuck Smith and the ministry, Calvary Ministries, which he founded.

All this ridiculous bickering over what one thinks God may like or dislike about the music some Christians sing to, the instruments they use, and the words they use when glorifying and praising God.

I went through the song Colonel_Flagg used, Desert Song (Hillsong), as his example of what bothers him about todays modern worship songs. He also points out that the song has a total of 24 pronouns, which he believes it a song about the seeker, not the Savior.

Well I counted the words in the song used, and counting the many times one would sing the Chorus, there are an total of 171 words.

To be fair, I found a Psalm that has close to the same amount of words in it. You will notice that Psalm 42 has 281 words, 34 of which are personal pronouns other than the one used to speak of God, "You". (Check it out below) Would you say that the Psalmist was overly consumed with himself in this Psalm instead of God?

1 As the deer pants for the water brooks,
1So pants my soul for You, O God.

2 my soul thirsts for God, for the living God.
2When shall I come and appear before God?

3 my tears have been my food day and night,
3While they continually say to me,
3"Where is your God?"

4 When I remember these things,
4I pour out my soul within me.
4For I used to go with the multitude;
4I went with them to the house of God,
4With the voice of joy and praise,
4With a multitude that kept a pilgrim feast.

5 Why are you cast down, O my soul?
5And why are you disquieted within me?
5Hope in God, for I shall yet praise Him
5For the help of His countenance.

6 O my God, my soul is cast down within me;
6Therefore I will remember You from the land of the Jordan,
6And from the heights of Hermon,
6From the Hill Mizar.

7 Deep calls unto deep at the noise of Your waterfalls;
7All Your waves and billows have gone over me.

8 The LORD will command His lovingkindness in the daytime,
8And in the night His song shall be with me--
8A prayer to the God of my life.

9 I will say to God my Rock,
9"Why have You forgotten me?
9Why do I go mourning because of the oppression of the enemy?"

10 As with a breaking of my bones,
10my enemies reproach me,
10While they say to me all day long,
10"Where is your God?"

11 Why are you cast down, O my soul?
11And why are you disquieted within me?
11Hope in God;
11For I shall yet praise Him,
11The help of my countenance and my God.
Psalms are songs, while they were usually spoken, often times they were accompanied with instruments.

I wonder how some Christians would react if a worship leader stood before them today reciting poems filled with personal pronouns that neither rhymed, nor used any instruments the parishioners are familiar with?

Now I will not claim that I no problems with the use of Modern styled music in Churches.

However, my problem with Churches using modern music has nothing to do with the new music, but rather the way worship leaders seem to follow the same type of format many radio stations do. They worship leaders lead the congregation in singing the most popular song of the time, and after a couple of Months they move onto the newest and most recent hit, while seldom playing the ones everyone liked 6 Months ago.

I also think they error in ignoring the traditional Christian songs that many of us older Christians enjoyed growing up with. I also believe that the younger generation is losing out by not learning the traditional Hymns,

That all being said, I think it borders on legalism to claim it is wrong for congregations to use any type of Music they chose to worship God.

I say all this as one who was raised in a Lutheran church until I was 10. When my mother remarried after a divorce, my step father had me attending a Catholic Church, along with taking catechism classes every Wednesday afternoon until I was 16.

At 20, near the end of my military I gave my life to God while attending a non denominational Evangelical Church in Columbus Ga, while stationed at Ft Benning Ga. It was the first time I learned the great Southern Gospels, and really fell in love with them.

That was back in 1976, since then I have moved many times, changed churches many times, and eventually found myself attending a Calvary Chapel in Chico where I now live. I soon learned that I really like the modern Christian music, but I do still enjoy the songs I learned in my younger years.

At 57 years old, I have learned that men can worship God in many ways. It's not the way one worships god that matters, it's what one believes about the Scriptures that matters. Do you follow the truth, or are you one who wants your itchy ears scratched so that you can justify your immoral life.

Sorry for the long response, but I get very carried away when it comes to my stance on Christian matters. Besides, by pinging me, you wanted me to respond.
45 posted on 10/06/2013 9:44:45 PM PDT by OneVike (I'm just a Christian waiting to go home)
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To: Joshua; OneVike

But it is destroying traditional worship, and if you look at it fairly, you’ll see that.

My personal Bible is KJV but I also read freely from NIV because I like to see a different commonly accepted translation because I believe that the Bible means something in English as well as Greek and Hebrew.

You’re quite right though, in that debating you is a waste of time since you’ve already won the argument. Churches all over America are adopting your style and leaving mine. All you have to do is wait for people like me to die off and you’ve won. So why debate?

That’s a shame for dinosaurs like me. But as I said, you’ve won. Enjoy your victory.


46 posted on 10/07/2013 5:39:17 AM PDT by Colonel_Flagg (My PV2 is my hero.)
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To: Joshua

Here’s what I honestly see.

The only person in our conversation who has talked about being offended is you. The only person in our conversation who has labeled another Christian as something else is you.

The only person who has called another person a Pharisee in this conversation, brother, is you.

You are, or were, a worship team leader, brother. You project an image on behalf of your church and ask your flock to follow your example as a worship leader.

I humbly suggest to you that you prayerfully and honestly examine the quality of your own witness to another Christian before you presume to judge mine.

Go in peace.


47 posted on 10/07/2013 7:05:29 AM PDT by Colonel_Flagg (My PV2 is my hero.)
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To: Colonel_Flagg; hiho hiho; Joshua

You are young for a dinosaur, grasshopper.

You say you use the KJV and the NIV. While I grew up reading the KJV, I have learned through the years, especially after I learned Greek and Hebrew that the KJV has many errors in it that are left over from the translator using either the Latin Vulgate or the translators own opinion when they had no ancient manuscripts to go by. This led to errors which have been corrected in the NKJV.

As for the NIV, one of the worse transliterations there has ever been in my opinion. Well, other than the nearly heretical NNIV translation.

Maybe you should do as I do, learn to use the Hebrew & Greek to compare the different translations and you will see that the NASB is the best translation, however I like the NKJV because it kept the poetic flow of the original KJV.

One example of the KJV being way wrong is the 6th Commandment. The KJV say “Thou Shall Not Kill”, however it is wrong. The original manuscripts and the truth is, “You Shall Not Murder”. By stating it is kill, many of Christians have been led astray to think God forbade us to kill anyone regardless of the reason, but he only forbade us to murder innocent people.

This error has even led many Christians to follow left wing liberals who use the misguided stance of no killing to gain power. Very dangerous, and that is but one error in the original KJV, but a huge one.

If you attended a Calvary chapel you would have learned that though, because it is one of the 10 Commandments.

Now, as for the NIV, at least the translators have the 6th Commandment right by stating “Murder” instead of “Killing”. has it as “Murder” and not “Kill”, but there are so many other errors in the NIV, that most scholars refer to it as the Non-Inspired-Version. So in my humble opinion, I may have problems with the original KJV, but at least there is a good reason for the errors in it. That being the lack of manuscripts at the time of its translation.

However, the translators of the NIV and the NNIV have no excuse. All the transcripts to correct the errors in the KJV were available when the NIV was translated.

Now as for the music, you are wrong, worship has not been destroyed in the Church. It can only be destroyed if God’s people refuse to worship God with all their mind, heart, and soul.

For a long time I was a pastor for a retirement center, and I used Gospel music because the men and women were from the generation that enjoyed them. I did bring some modern ones in from time to time just to get their opinion, and they all had no problem with them, but they preferred the traditional music.

Many of the ladies were widows who have walked with Christ since their childhood. Some were widows of pastors, and some were children of pastors, but they all worshiped God in spirit and truth from their heart. Nothing was going to destroy their faith, least of all modern worship music.

The archbishop of Milan, Aurelius Ambrosius, was the first one to use any sort of music to get the congregation ready for the word. Many at the time accused him of destroying Christianity by leading his followers astray. He was accused of secularizing Christianity in order to win new converts. Similar argument you use to attack modern worship music.

Like I said, even King David was attacked bu his wife for making a fool of himself by dancing half naked in the street while playing the harp as the Arc of the Covenant was brought into Jerusalem. After all, you never would have seen Samuel doing such a silly and blasphemous thing, now would have Moses, or Joshua.

Be careful about what you claim to be heretical and Christ destroying. Many, many lost souls have come to God in the last 40 years, by a ministry that uses modern worship music. Many of these people are now great followers of Christ who teach the most conservative Christian message straight from the Bible.

I said it before, and I’ll say it again. I will put the knowledge of those who attend Calvary Chapels against any other ministry any day. I guarantee you will not find more knowledgeable and true followers of Christ anywhere. So it seems that modern worship music has not destroyed the message or faith of those singing it at Calvary Chapels.

I dare say that if anyone is losing faith and not learning the truth, it has NOTHING to do with the music, but EVERYTHING to do with the teaching. I also bet you will not find anyone falling in that category at a Calvary Chapel.


48 posted on 10/07/2013 9:44:42 AM PDT by OneVike (I'm just a Christian waiting to go home)
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To: Colonel_Flagg
I used to be against the contemporary music too, and I certainly agree that we can be self-centered in regard to our Christian walk. The flesh does that.

I pastor a church now, and in the past I played guitar in church with the praise team. I cannot stand to watch people playing who are simply drawing attention to themselves. In fact, I do not allow it.

But in all honesty, the psalms were contemporary when they were written, as was the language of the King James bible. Organs were contemporary when they were first introduced.

Concerning the song that you mentioned, it does not stand a lone when considering the singer's mention of self:

Psalm 23
King James Version (KJV)
23 The Lord is my shepherd; I shall not want.

2 He maketh me to lie down in green pastures: he leadeth me beside the still waters.

3 He restoreth my soul: he leadeth me in the paths of righteousness for his name's sake.

4 Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil: for thou art with me; thy rod and thy staff they comfort me.

5 Thou preparest a table before me in the presence of mine enemies: thou anointest my head with oil; my cup runneth over.

6 Surely goodness and mercy shall follow me all the days of my life: and I will dwell in the house of the Lord for ever.


I did not count the mentions of David as compared to God, but there were many mentions of David. This chapter has much to say about the believer's desire to look at self and count his blessings or mention things he needs of God.

49 posted on 10/07/2013 10:01:23 AM PDT by Preachin' (I stand with many voters who will never vote for a pro abortion candidate.)
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To: OneVike

“Maybe you should do as I do, learn to use the Hebrew & Greek to compare the different translations and you will see that the NASB is the best translation, however I like the NKJV because it kept the poetic flow of the original KJV.”

Like you, I prefer the NKJV for its flow. It’s just that it sounds most like the KJV, with which I had used the most. Use of parallel bibles and a concordance do wonders too.


50 posted on 10/07/2013 10:04:34 AM PDT by Preachin' (I stand with many voters who will never vote for a pro abortion candidate.)
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