Let us have a real care that we do not talk at cross purposes and thus descend into finger-pointing. A couple of reminders:
It was I who quoted Churchill about the Nazis bringing on a dark age made more terrible by "the lights of perverted science." So there can be no disagreement between us about the fact that the Germans combined whatever was torturing their soul with technology.
It was I who said that the Holocaust "was the product of the German soul, of 20th century technology and science, or the fanaticism of Hitler and his henchmen. I suspect it was some combination of all three." I do not deny, therefore, in fact, I advanced the idea that there was something in the German soul at the time which contributed to the Holocaust.
I did not insinuate:
1) Are you attempting shake off my “German Soul” idea by demonstrating that other cultures were, “just as bad”?
2) Israel exerting “undue”? influence on US Foreign Policy.
3) Jews as the main disseminating force of world Communism.
I will object to your "German soul" idea if you want to extrapolate that into an ongoing inter-generational tendency that is carried in the DNA of Germans. If that is your argument you must explain why it is that Germans seem to lose that tendency when they take up American citizenship. Do they change the DNA like so much oil? Moreover, I caution that when you make that assertion you are playing with fire. That was the import of these remarks which were made in a different context than you place them:
"If we insist that "Germany as a nation bears this sin" do we not leave ourselves intellectually defenseless to saying that Jews as a group bear responsibility for the advance of communism? If we are going to draw these conclusions, these invidious distinctions based on race or ethnicity, where does logic make us stop? May I say that stereotypes which you use in irony such as, "those money grubbing Jews” become legitimate debating points?"
Is there something in the DNA of Jews that makes them…? Why is it intellectually and morally indefensible to make that generalization but perfectly proper to say that Germans have a distorted soul, Irish are drunks, French are lousy soldiers, Mexicans are lazy etc. Do you really want to go there? Does the cultural Revolution which killed tens of millions prove that the Chinese soul is given to vigilante-ism? Does the British importation of slaves into the Americas prove that they are given to slavery? Does the British Navy subsequently policing the slave trade on the high seas and on in land rivers prove that the British are not slavers? How do you generalize about a nation (never mind whether you're talking about an actual race) from a historical event? Does the fact that the Israelis have won a series of wars against great odds mean that they are a warlike race? In this context I observe that Jews played a prominent role in the rise of communism. The Frankfurt School was 100% Jewish; Cloward and Piven were Jews (I think); Saul Alinsky, mentor of Hillary Clinton and posthumous mentor of Barack Obama, was a Jew. Am I therefore now entitled to say that Jews have a communist soul?
As to the United States support of Israel: I believe that the United States should be guided by a rational sense of its national interest. If you argue that an alliance with democratic Israel advances the American national interest, that is an argument which counts for me. But the idea that America should support Israel because the Germans murdered Jews does not. That observation was made in the context of the latter generations of Germans not wanting to pay reparations for what their fathers and grandfathers did. Likewise, I want to know what America gets out of its relationship with Israel not whether Israel is our burden because of German crimes of a prior generation.
Finally, I am clear about the German war guilt and about German guilt for the Holocaust but I am not at all clear that we should vest the sins of the fathers onto the sons. I think the idea that we can define a national soul and carry guilt from generation to generation is very dangerous.
It is in this context I note that Olog-hai volunteered:
Germans do not want to celebrate the fact that they lost two world wars in a row. Let ‘em go celebrate cultural diversity and being flooded with Muslims over a beer. Yah! Yah! Ve von de var you know!
But immediately before your last intelligent reply I received this:
All I can say to that very propagandized response is for all to recall George Santayana’s maxim. Study of the past will clarify things very much.
It does not advance our understanding to resort to cryptic phrases which are pregnant with allusions to one of the monstrous crimes in the history of mankind. I think it is better to say it plainly.
Without drawing this missive out into a long-winded, (which is what's going to happen anyway) esoteric debate I can say that we are in agreement. I am not finger pointing. I wish to reach a rapprochement with you.
I am not, in any way, insinuating anything residing in a German DNA. I reject the DNA idea completely. Tortured soul, yes, preprogramemd killing tendency, no.
You stated:
“Does the fact that the Israelis have won a series of wars against great odds mean that they are a warlike race”?
The fact that Israel has won a series of wars is a testament to the fact that most of these wars were defensible, thus making them loyal to the name of the Army, the Israel DEFENSE Forces.
If Israel was really a warlike country, it would have soundly defeated the Arabs and utterly wiped them out so as to not to have to deal with them again, in another, and yet another war as we have seen up until the present time. Israel could have eliminated the Arabs in 1948, 1956, 1967, 1973 but she stopped short of that because she seeks a negotiated peace. The Arabs on the contrary fight genocidal wars as we are seeing right now. Had they won, we would not be here at all. Just look at what they do to each other, in their own lands!
Jews and Communism. Jews have a tendency to stand out and not accept the status quo and are always found at the forefront or avantguard of X.
Jews love change because they're never satisfied with what is. More recently, that's why they voted for Obama’s CHANGE. This Jew did not support the current President.
This desire for change propels them to the forefront of both moderate and radical change throughout history, in all fields (Einstein, Freud and Marx) including politics. Alinsky, Jerry Rubin, Abbie Hoffman, Rosa Luxembourg, Trotsky and so many more were Jews with a change agenda that revolutionized the world.
Jews may initiate that change but never sure how it will end, usually to their detriment. This is a lesson not learned by the Jews. The aims of Zionism on the other hand are designed by, for and the advabcement of the Jews in Eretz Yisrael, the Land of Israel.
I thought the Frankfurt school was an anti-Socialist, anti-collective Economic think tank. Am I incorrect? Many Jews there? Like Hayek and Mises? Are/were these fellows Jews?
Obama’s mentors are (unfortunately) individuals like Jimmy Carter, Zbig Brzezinski, Rev. Wright, Alinksy and a host of Left-wing nut cases, but the people did elect him.
What can I say about the likes of Jews like Ram Emmanuel or in Clinton's administration, Sandy Berger, Mad. Albright, Martin Indyk, Dennis Ross, etc.? I can only hang my head in shame at these Jews who serve another G-d apparently.
You stated:
“Likewise, I want to know what America gets out of its relationship with Israel not whether Israel is our "burden" because of German crimes of a prior generation”.
Do you see Israel as a “burden”? I'd like to know why. Israel gives many things to America but most of it is secret.
America does not support Israel ONLY out of a moral conviction to perhaps, safeguard a people who are part and parcel of the founding of America and the deep Judeo-Christian values that existed in America and perhaps, still guide her but I am not so sure anymore.
I think self-interest is primary followed by COMMON VALUES in a sea of barbarity in the Middle East. There is no denying that the moral element for Germany's relationship with Israel is part of a post-war “responsibility” that the Germans feel. This will fade with time and then where will Germany be?
It has been said that the Jews are the Miner's canary bird in the cave for civilization. When Jews go down, other always follow, this seems to be a rule throughout history and maybe this is why, it is still important for the West to “safeguard” the Jews from Holocaust II, though, if you ask me, we in Israel can't RELY on anybody to defend us.
Obama and the West are showing that they are not prepared to do anything whatsoever to halt the Iranians, who will get the bomb and this will change the planet. Now onto your last issue.
You come back to what I think is your main point, time and time again. That the sins of the fathers should not be passed down to the children. There is great merit in what you say but in reality it is the German people's decision. It is up to your culture and society in Deutschland to deal with it and, get over it or, pass it down.
The Jews will not forget and these memories are passed down just as the memories from ancient Persia (holiday of Purim) and ancient Egypt (holiday of Passover) are remembered and burned into our religious, national-social psyches.
When Israeli youth, from high schools, visit Auschwitz and do what is called, “The March of the Living” wearing Israeli blue and white with flags in hand, does this not irriatte the Poles? Does this not remind them about something they'd prefer to forget about? Of course. We remember and mark the place, the Poles can chose to hate us for reminding them or they can deal with it in their own terms.
So Germany has to deal with their own past, in the own terms. It is not up to me as a post-WWII Jew to tell you what to do with that package of horror. Either learn from it or make similar mistakes again, in the future.
I do not want to dictate anything to you but history shows the Jewish people that they pay a price for reminding others that they (the Jews) thrive and live and are a testament to G-d. This can really piss off other faiths and it does.
I even once read a diatribe by Bin Laden where he attacked the Jews by saying that the Torah is the sole possession of the Muslims, not the “pigs and monkey” Jews.
I call that unbridled jealousy and hate and that is what Islam suffers from today.