ELCA Has Biggest Split in American Church History

Steadfast Lutherans ^ | 7/12/13 | Rev. Kevin Vogts

[xone]

Pound sand.

[Luircin]

I’m afraid that I’m completely out of the loop, but what exactly happened to that steeple, and how close was it to that abominable decision?

[Cronos]

Why are there still 4 million souls in the elca? Praying for you in wels, lcmc rtcto save these folks

[Cronos]

As a Catholic, i want to thank you for bringing your conservatism to The Church. You have seen the evil of secularism first hand and will help us prevent it getting afoothold in orthodoxy

[Elsie]

It's hard to kick against the pricks.

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Genesis 13:13

Now the men of Sodom were wicked and were sinning greatly against the LORD.

Genesis 18:20-21
20. Then the LORD said, "The outcry against Sodom and Gomorrah is so great and their sin so grievous
21. that I will go down and see if what they have done is as bad as the outcry that has reached me. If not, I will know."

Genesis 19:4-7
4. Before they had gone to bed, all the men from every part of the city of Sodom--both young and old--surrounded the house.
5. They called to Lot, "Where are the men who came to you tonight? Bring them out to us so that we can have sex with them."
6. Lot went outside to meet them and shut the door behind him
7. and said, "No, my friends. Don't do this wicked thing.

Psalms 12:8 The wicked freely strut about when what is vile is honored among men.

Isaiah 3:9 The look on their faces testifies against them; they parade their sin like Sodom; they do not hide it. Woe to them! They have brought disaster upon themselves.

2 Peter 2:13b Their idea of pleasure is to carouse in broad daylight. They are blots and blemishes, reveling in their pleasures while they feast with you.

Ezekiel 16:49-50
49. "`Now this was the sin of your sister Sodom: She and her daughters were arrogant, overfed and unconcerned; they did not help the poor and needy.
50. They were haughty and did detestable things before me. Therefore I did away with them as you have seen.

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2 Peter 2

1. But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them--bringing swift destruction on themselves.
2. Many will follow their shameful ways and will bring the way of truth into disrepute.
3. In their greed these teachers will exploit you with stories they have made up. Their condemnation has long been hanging over them, and their destruction has not been sleeping.
4. For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but sent them to hell, putting them into gloomy dungeons to be held for judgment;
5. if he did not spare the ancient world when he brought the flood on its ungodly people, but protected Noah, a preacher of righteousness, and seven others;
6. if he condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah by burning them to ashes, and made them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly;
7. and if he rescued Lot, a righteous man, who was distressed by the filthy lives of lawless men
8. (for that righteous man, living among them day after day, was tormented in his righteous soul by the lawless deeds he saw and heard)--
9. if this is so, then the Lord knows how to rescue godly men from trials and to hold the unrighteous for the day of judgment, while continuing their punishment.
10. This is especially true of those who follow the corrupt desire of the sinful nature and despise authority. Bold and arrogant, these men are not afraid to slander celestial beings;
11. yet even angels, although they are stronger and more powerful, do not bring slanderous accusations against such beings in the presence of the Lord.
12. But these men blaspheme in matters they do not understand. They are like brute beasts, creatures of instinct, born only to be caught and destroyed, and like beasts they too will perish.
13. They will be paid back with harm for the harm they have done. Their idea of pleasure is to carouse in broad daylight. They are blots and blemishes, reveling in their pleasures while they feast with you.

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But there IS hope!!!

1 Corinthians 6:9-11

9. Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived:
Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders
10. nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.
11. And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.

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If you could NOT change, you would be in most pitiful shape...
 

 

 

 

 

[Elsie]

Apparently all Christian denominations in the U.S. are suffering declines in ASA/marriages/baptisms.

Luke 18:8

However, when the Son of Man comes, will he find faith on the earth? ....

[TArcher]

Pound your own sand.

LCMS’ has failed to post a position paper on the subject:

http://www.google.com/search?q=The+Jews+and+Their+Lies+site%3Awww.lcms.org&btnG=Search&hl=en&biw=&bih=&gbv=1

What does this mean?

[Luircin]

Get bent.

I’m an LCMS seminarian, and the seminary has never denied that Luther wrote that, and even include it in the volumes of his work. We also acknowledge that Luther was pro-Semite in his early life and only wrote that work when he’d heard that the Jews of the time were trying to stop the spread of the Gospel. And that’s what Luther did; if something impeded the Gospel in his eyes, he let his potty mouth loose. It doesn’t mean that we take it as doctrine.

Not that you’ll pay attention to anything I say; it feels so GOOD to hate the LCMS that you won’t ever want to change your mind.

Perhaps you’d like me to start poking holes in YOUR faith?

[MacNaughton]

42 I’m afraid that I’m completely out of the loop, but what exactly happened to that steeple, and how close was it to that abominable decision?

8/17-23/2009 - The Evangelical Lutheran Church in America (ELCA) held its (biennial) 11th Churchwide Assembly in Minneapolis, MN. The major item on its docket was the Social Statement “of "Human Sexuality, Gift and Trust." Human sexuality pertaining to homosexuality had been an active topic for the past 20 years. On 8/19/2009 a tornado struck and damaged the Central Lutheran Church building in downtown Minneapolis as well as the Minneapolis Convention Center - the ELCA was holding its convention in both places that day. A vote on the Social Statement was scheduled to take place promptly at 2 PM. Because of a tornado warning, the vote was delayed but passed later that day as amended by a vote of 676-338: precisely the two-thirds majority needed for passage. The Statement was in essence a Solomonic decision which permitted individual congregations to either bless homosexual unions or reject them.

On 8/21/2009, church delegates voted to allow congregations to call and ordain gays and lesbians in committed monogamous relationships to serve as clergy by a vote of 559 to 451. Congregations were granted the choice whether to call homosexuals or not. The ELCA became the 3rd mainline American Protestant denomination, after TEC and the UCC, to approve homosexual ordination.

[TArcher]

[and the seminary has never denied that Luther wrote that, and even include it in the volumes of his work.]

There are several translations of that work floating around — Including those associated with the anti-semitic thinking in Mein Kampf; and the translation date being 10 years earlier than the one published by Concordia Publishing.

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&source=hp&biw=&bih=&q=On+the+Jews+and+Their+Lies%2C+Mein+Kampf&btnG=Google+Search&gbv=1

There are significant differences for which a clarifying LCMS position paper would be appropriate.

There is none.

So go get bent yourself, ya fallible and uninspiring jackwagon.

[Luircin]

I think that just MAYBE I might know more about the subject than you do, considering that I’ve been completely immersed in said subject for the last seven years. I’ve seen NOTHING that even hints at the slightest bit of anti-Semitism in today’s LCMS, despite your breathless accusations and innuendos and moaning about ‘no paper ever published,’ whatever the hell THAT means.

And MY research has been more extensive than a nasty comment and a Google search for biased websites.

For pity’s sake, what flew up your butt and died? You think that just MAYBE there are more important fights right now? You know, like against the REAL anti-Semites in today’s world?

[TArcher]

[I think that just MAYBE I might know more about the subject than you do]

You think?  Well, I think MAYBE you're just another confused, overeducated, "formerly gay homosexual" L.I.F.E.R. eunuch-parrot perched upon the seminary steps.

"In November 1998, on the 60th anniversary of Kristallnacht, the Lutheran Church of Bavaria issued a statement: "It is imperative for the Lutheran Church, which knows itself to be indebted to the work and tradition of Martin Luther, to take seriously also his anti-Jewish utterances, to acknowledge their theological function, and to reflect on their consequences. It has to distance itself from every [expression of] anti-Judaism in Lutheran theology."^[9]"

9^ "Christians and Jews: A Declaration of the Lutheran Church of Bavaria", November 24, 1998, also printed in Freiburger Rundbrief, 6:3 (1999), pp.191-197. For other statements from Lutheran bodies, see:

• "Q&A: Luther's Anti-Semitism", Lutheran Church - Missouri Synod;
• "Declaration of the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America to the Jewish Community", Evangelical Lutheran Church in America, April 18, 1994;
• "Statement by the Evangelical Lutheran Church in Canada to the Jewish Communities in Canada", Evangelical Lutheran Church in Canada, July 12–16, 1995;
• "Time to Turn", The Evangelical [Protestant] Churches in Austria and the Jews. Declaration of the General Synod of the Evangelical Church A.B. and H.B., October 28, 1998.

Hmm.  Bavaria?  Where is that?  Was it a little closer to the action back circa 1933 than whatever seminary your "formerly gay" feathers are presently perched within?   Yep.

NO SALE

[TArcher]

[I think that just MAYBE I might know more about the subject than you do]

 

LOL.  You obviously assume you do.

 

 

Quack, waddle...

 

 

"...who, being themselves but fallible and uninspired men, have assumed dominion over the faith of others, setting up their own opinions and modes of thinking as the only true and infallible, and as such endeavoring to impose them on others, hath established and maintained false religions over the greatest part of the world, and through all time;

 

...

 

 that it is time enough for the rightful purposes of civil government, for its officers to interfere when principles break out into overt acts against peace and good order; and finally, that truth is great and will prevail if left to herself, that she is the proper and sufficient antagonist to error, and has nothing to fear from the conflict, unless by human interposition disarmed of her natural weapons, free argument and debate, errors ceasing to be dangerous when it is permitted freely to contradict them. "

 

"I HAVE SWORN UPON THE ALTAR OF GOD ETERNAL HOSTILITY TO EVERY FORM OF TYRANNY OVER THE MIND OF MAN"

--The Virginia Act For Establishing Religious Freedom
--Thomas Jefferson, 1786

http://religiousfreedom.lib.virginia.edu/sacred/vaact.html

 

FAIL.

[TArcher]

Tell us, Mr. “Called” wannabe - what’s the “Best Possible Construction” for this...

http://www.google.com/search?q=First+to+set+fire+to+their+synagogues+or+schools+and+to+bury+and+cover+with+dirt+whatever+will+not+burn%2C+&btnG=Search&hl=en&biw=&bih=&gbv=1

...Hmmm ?

[WinOne4TheGipper]

AFAIK, ELCA bylaws state that if a congregation leaves, they (the congregation gets to keep the property. There have been cases I’ve heard of where ELCA has still tried to keep the property, though.

[WinOne4TheGipper]

Thank you!

[lightman]

AFAIK, ELCA bylaws state that if a congregation leaves, they (the congregation gets to keep the property. There have been cases I’ve heard of where ELCA has still tried to keep the property, though.

Correct on both counts.

Part of the procedure for congregations departing states that congregations which were either part of the LCA before the 1988 merger, or formed subsequent, must receive the approval of the Synod Council.

In a few cases the Synod Council has refused dismissal on the grounds that the congregation is "critical for mission". There is one such case in Wisconsin that has turned into a very ugly court battle.

In a few other cases the Mission Investment Fund of the ELCA has demanded that any outstanding loan balance be paid in full before dismissal.

[Luircin]

You know, right now I officially have NO idea what you’re talking about.

You bring up some kind of weird church... state... religious freedom... THING, and think that this is apparently some kind of brilliant argument, even though it has absolutely nothing to do with what we’re talking about.

Then you send me random Google links about a book that pretty much no one in the LCMS agrees with. We acknowledge that Luther wrote it, but that doesn’t mean that we think he’s RIGHT about it. We never said that Martin Luther was infallible.

So what the heck are you trying to say, huh? Because you’re doing a pretty crappy job of trying to justify your mindless loathing.

[Elsie]

Get bent.

I’m an LCMS seminarian,

I don't think that I would admit the second; after typing the first...

[Elsie]

...sow the wind: reap the whirlwind...