Posted on 06/03/2013 1:06:02 PM PDT by Olog-hai
Basically it was a socialist inspired social benefit that had to be justified in court by explaining that it was a plain ol’ tax. The tax is not segregated and also not invested so there is no pension in a true sense to be unfunded.
It followed in the wake of the 30s depression that was quadrupled in length by Republican (tariff) and Democrat (FDR-everything) policies causing much suffering.
Instead it is just a social program retirement benefit that can disappear at the whim of Congress.
< /see Obamacare >
[[The Social Security program faces $9.6 trillion in unfunded liabilities over the next 75 years,]]
BS- the baby boomers will be gettign old and dying soon, and we’ll be right back to more payers thjan takers (provided the govenrment QUITS givign deadbeats who claim dissability who aren’t disabled money)-
It DID work just fine until our govenrment SPENT all them oney and began givign every tom dick and harry dissability, and began tellign workers who lost hteir jobs they coudl live off the dole for 4 years without worry-
The fact is more peopel were payign in than were requirign help at hte end of theirl ives- The odds were that lots of folks die without ever colelcting- so their taxes they paisd in simpyl went into the fund for others who needed it- it was soemthign Aemricans were willign to do because as any decent person woudl agree- we always help thsoe that need help- Howevwer, our greedy govenrment took that money, spent it, instead of ivnestign it liek they shoudl have been, and now that baby boomers are hitting old age, we’re now in a situation were there’s mroe taking (BUT ONLY bweczuse the govenrment is lettign EVERYONE on the dole- even ILLEGAL ALIENS)
The program started out fine- andm ost Americans agreed that if they didn’t need help at the end, they woudl gladly help others by allowign theirm oeny to go to others who needed it- Many folks die young, meanign htey never colelcted, many die before retirement etc-
here’s a pretty good exampel/article by forbes magazien abotu why SS can’t realistically go broke
http://www.forbes.com/sites/johntharvey/2011/04/08/why-social-security-cannot-go-bankrupt/
Maybe you are being sarcastic but in case your are not...
You did not “contribute” and you will not “take out”.
You were taxed and you will receive.
You were taxed to pay others and now others will be taxed to pay you. It is a straight up income transfer scheme no more no less.
There are no unfunded liabilities because THERE ARE NO LIABILITIES.
The government has no legally binding contractual obligation to pay out a single dime. SS is simply a politcal scheme that takes from one person and gives it to another.
[[It is a straight up income transfer scheme no more no less.]]
Thast’s true- but it’s one I think most Americans are pretty ok with as they are mroea than willing to provide help for thsoe that need it- and don’t really so much mind SS beign taken out (sure soem grumble, but most udnerstand that if htere coems a tiem when htey need it, it will be there for them, if not, then what they pay in will go toward helpign someone else who needs it)
What msot Americans don’t liek however is helpign thsoe who apply for disability simply because they can’t fidn a job- thsoe folsk are bilkign the system and puttign a trememdous strain on the fund, nor do they necessarily like the idea of soem of the conditiosn covered under dissability beign covered while thsoe with true disabilities are often denied
That is pretty much like having three or four outstanding credit cards.
Obama should be accused of identity theft.
He is using those cards that he took out in our names.
And then he's sticking it to us with the bill.
You are right that most Americans will help those in need but the leap from that sentiment to justifying SS is a huge one. But given that it is true, why then do we need forced income redistribution? Why not let family help family, neighbor help neighbor, friend help..., etc.?
You are advocating for forced redistribution of income from one person to another. I am helping no one with my SS taxes. It is the US Government who is helping people. I have no control over it and no one is thanking me for it. The recipients of this largess will vote to take vote to take ever more which is why working and taxpaying Americans resent the HELL out of this program.
You have justified SS in your mind by viewing it as some benign social insurance program. It is not benign because it takes about 15% of people’s income. That means I spend every 39 days per year in forced labor on behalf of someone else’s. It is not insurance because there is no guarantee of future payments. The next generation could end if they have the political power.
This part of our national debt, the government issues bonds which can never be cashed in, these IOU’s are part of the national debt.
baloney. Google "Ida May Fuller." The system was broken the moment it changed from a single lump-sum payment to a monthly check; basically from day one.
[[why then do we need forced income redistribution? Why not let family help family, neighbor help neighbor, friend help..., etc.?]]
Because left ot themsleves, peopel will not help- forced to, they capitulate and deem it a ‘necessary evil’ so to speak-I’ts a well established fact that the richest parts of towns give the least (not all rich are stingy, but stats show lots are)-
[[I am helping no one with my SS taxes.]]
Actually you are- Your money is goign to them- and when you get older and need help- theirm oeny will go to you (Provided dear leader doesn’t squash the system altogether)
[[The recipients of this largess will vote to take vote to take ever more which is why working and taxpaying Americans resent the HELL out of this program.]]
Mosdt peopel on it ligitimately (IE peopel who aren’t ILLEGAL ALIENS) accept what htey get (and beleive me, it aint much per month for a great many people) and don’t ask form ore- I think perhaps you are confusing SS with welfare wherre most peopel on welfare who have NEVER paid in feel they are entitled and always demand more and more-
[[That means I spend every 39 days per year in forced labor on behalf of someone else’s.]]
Not sure how old you are, or how good your retirement plan is, perhaps good enough to see you through your golden years without needign help- but shoudl you need it, it’s there for you-
This is a much different hting than dear leader simply jjst takign money away from rich peopel and giving it to others- thsoe rich folks will not benifit- they just lose theirm oney- period- the SS system is designed as a community help program to take care of the elderly and disabled when they can no logner care for themselves, and we will all fall into one of those two categories at soem point if we live logn enough to grow old- IF we die young, then we can die knowing we’ve our part to help otwehrs in life and not simpyl just concerned about ourselves- I don’t concider that a bad thing-
[[The next generation could end if they have the political power.]]
Which is why we either need to do everythign we can to keep it going, OR fidn antoher way to help our elderly and sick- and YEs, the sick and elderly WILL recieve mroe than htey put in because that is the nature of growing old and sick and beign too feeble to care for oursleves any logner- The SS system somewhat ensured that them oeny woudl be there because many would die before ever needing it, but if left to depend on voluntasry contributions, peopel would NOT cotnribute what is needed and life woudl be even worse hell at the end for a great many-
you and I we’re not there yet, however, we may very well be- and it will be hell IF we have to rely on unreliable good will of people or if we have to do without because htere’s nothign there-
Suppose you went to your neighbors and said “Let’sw all begin pooling money now so that when we get older we’ll have soemthing to support us”- Not gonna happen- itm ight work for awhile, but pretty soon peopel will resent an obligatory voluntary cut to their pay because of our nature of beign shortsighted and only seeign hte immediate- If you think they will voluntarily keep donating the same amouitns so that the system can work, try loaining money to several peopel and expect them to pay it back regularly, and weatch all the excuses you get as to why they couldn’t coem up with hteir weekly payment this week, and next, and next etc- the excuses will be endless
[[It is not insurance because there is no guarantee of future payments.]]
It ‘could happen’ but I doubt it will happen- no president wants to lose the senior vote- IF it does, We’ll simply have to cross that bridge hwne it gets here- And yes, good peopel who haven’t reached retirement age yet WILL be out a lot of money- however, there will be a slight bit of solace knowing whiel they worked, they WERE helping others- even if begrudgingly so-
I guess we are going to make the border-jumping identity thieves pay the bill for the late-retiring boomers—and then terminate SS when the border-jumping identity thieves start to retire. Could almost be a fair exchange.
yeah no, not so much, the system had more people payign in than were receivign payments, and let’s not forget, back then peopel were dyign much younger (notl ong ago the national average lifespan was just 38 years old- not sure what it was in the 40’s when Ida bergan receivign her checks, but much less than today’s lifespan average) so this meant lots of people were not collectign retirement but were still paying in- This was the ‘retirement plan’ sold by congress to the people (Yes, I know, we didn’t agree to have SS witrhheld, but we were told them oney was goign to be there if and when we needed it- So many people rightfully so thought they were part of a system that woudl be their safety net
I take it your resposne to me was a response foprmed after lsitenign to Glenn Beck’s rant abotu ‘peopel slurping at hte government trough’? (in which he specifically targetted Ida May?) He showed how she only paid in $24 or so, while collecting over $22,000 because she lived so long afterwards- He made it seem like everyoen inevitably WILL get old and collect large sums but as we know, thsoe that do live long are offset by thsoe that don’t make it to old age (The baby boomer generation is goign to put a bit of a wrinkle in this though- but only temporarily) tens of millions who died BEFORE colelctign anythign will foot hte bills of thsoe that do live logner- and if we as a geenration can’t agree to help out htis way EVEN IF we’re the oens who might die early before collecting, then there’s soemthign morally wrong with us
Again, most people’s understandign of the system was that ‘sure, soem would get more than they put in, probably most woudl get more, but also, many woudl die before ever collecting, and many would die soon after they began collecting, and so the left overs woudl be i nthe fund that was SUPPOSED to be invested to ensure the money woudl still be there and makign money to keep the fund with enough cash to cover growing population- We now know our govenrment did NOT do that- they squandered the money, and continue squanderign taxpayer money by sendign hundreds of billiosn to terrorist nations while our seniors and dissabled are forced to do without
Not sure why all the anger is beign directed at thsoe who paid in and then colelct i nthe end? The cuprit here is the governement tellign us there’s ‘nop money left’ when ifnact there are hundredfs of billions left (there must be, otherwise, how coudl our dear leader be sendign so much overseas and givign so much to ILLEGAL ALIENS?
We can’t fault the folks who worked hard all theuir lives thinkign htey woudl be taken care of, and if they didn’;t live long enough, their moeny woudl help others- that was how the system was suppsoed to work EVEN WHEN the system went to a monthly payment system- there was plenty of money to take care of everythign UNTIL our govenrment screwed us (per usual)
The mentaqlity seems to be ‘Taxpayers foot the bills of thsoe who ‘no logner work’ but the mentality shuld be ‘Taxpayers foot the bikll of thsoe who ‘CAN NO LONGER WORK’ knowing that they too will be in that position very soon themselves someday”
I have not confused SS with welfare because SS is welfare. As you have clearly stated, SS is the forcible taking from person to give to another which makes it a income transfer scheme or welfare.
You can talk all you want about how people need it and we need to help those in need and how some day it will be there for me but in the end someone with a gun will force me to support you.
You take a grim view of America and seem to believe that the only way for the old and infirmed to survive is via government action.
How ever did our old and infirmed manage to survive before SS?
Hint...not with government.
[[I have not confused SS with welfare because SS is welfare]]
A majority of welfare recipients NEVER contribute, a majority of SS recipients have cotnributed
[[SS is the forcible taking from person to give to another which makes it a income transfer scheme or welfare.]]
So what you’re sayign is that basically, because someoen can no logner work, it shoudl be their problem and theirs alone, and you shouldn’;t have to support them because it woudl be ‘forced support’- ? By this logic, you’d also not contribute voluntarily on a regualr basis because you would feel ‘obligated by morlaity’ to keep doing so and therefore forced to support htose that can no logner support themselves-
If you’re pissed off at epopel who can no logner support themsleves receivign back soem of what htey put in to a system, and then receivign a bitm ore, whiel soem folsk who paid in die early and don’t get to actualyl ‘reap the rewards’ of their ‘forced SS patyments’ then say so- If you feel peoepl who are too old to take care of themselves shoudl just crawl in a corner soemwhere and die if they weren’t fortunate enouygh to have enoguyh extra income to squirel away, then say so- Soudns to me liek you’re pissed that you might have to work hard, pay SS and perhaps not receive it due to not reachign retirement age- What if you do reaCH it, and havent’ been wealthy enopugh to sset aside retirenemtn money, or your company goes belly up and you lose out on what you thoguht was goign to be your retirement income?
As I mentioend in my last post- I’m not really keen on livign in a society that turns it;s back o nthe elderly and the sick and leaves them to fend for themselves WITHOUT enough help to make it after they have sacrificed so much for us- if you’re fien with that- then whatever-
[[You can talk all you want about how people need it and we need to help those in need and how some day it will be there for me but in the end someone with a gun will force me to support you.]]
Wow- Really?
[[You take a grim view of America and seem to believe that the only way for the old and infirmed to survive is via government action.]]
And what’s your plan for helpign otu the milliosn upon millions of folks who worked their hearts out for very little wages, who built thsi great nation of ours, who broke their backs makign life easier for us these days, who have NO income or savings because they couldn’t earn enough, but who nonetheless paid into the SS system all thsoe years but shoudln’t receive SS accordign to you appaprently? If you have a plan to support them when they’;ve sacrificed so much for us, I’d liek to hear it-? Donations? Voluntary Good will? Churches? What abotu htose too sick to have ever worked? How are they goign to supprot themselves? To survive?
[[How ever did our old and infirmed manage to survive before SS?]]
If you wish to go back to that kind of lifestyle- and you have chuildren to support you, then by all means- help yourself- it was a msierable existence- and can NOT be doen today with today’s extremeely high inflationary prices on eVERYTHING-
Andl et’s not forget, communities were MUCH MUCH more givign back then- If someone’s housde burned down communities banned togehr and sacrificed their time andm oney to help that family- or if a family was starvign neighbors helped that family
Goodl uck getting today’sd peopel to give a crap abotu anyoen but themselves
The great generation looted SS...and created the LBJ great society socialism....
The boomers get government gang banged again...
Maybe that'll be the trigger to the needed event.
I'll pay money to watch that coast to coast explosion.
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