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To: Bender2; donmeaker; Mr. Blond; Dundee
Stealthiness is really not he be-all-end-all of aerial combat. It is simply one metric in a soup of convergent/divergent aspects that have to be considered on aggregate. These facets need to be looked at based on what a country requires for its defense needs, and not just because there is something available that has a trick exhaust or fat tires and a nice paint job. Canada will never find itself in an air combat environment where it will need to have an effective integrated air-defense network penetrator (since the US would be there), and even IF IT DID the F-35 is not an IADS penetrator. Modern stealthy cruise missiles launched from aircraft or submarines (e.g. the German Tuarus missile design) are a far better (and far cheaper) option that having F-35s if one is that worried about 'stealth.'

More importantly, the costs of the F-35 are simply not justifiable to a country like Canada, especially considering that the Gripen NG will do 100% of what the F-35 would have done for Canada (because Canada will not be doing IADS penetration duties) at 15% of the cost. It is really a pretty open-and-shut case.

Is the F-35 better than the Gripen NG? Easy - yes it is. Far better. It is stealthier, it has better sensor networking, etc. However,does it give Canada any additional capabilities based on the probable missions Canada would be involved in? Not really. More importantly ...does that extra capability provided by the F-35 justify the cost overhang over the Gripen? Definitely not!

It is like comparing a Corvette C6 with a Bugatti Veyron SuperSport. Is the Veyron a better car (in terms of handling, speed, acceleration)? Definitely yes. However, the Bugatti Veyron SS costs US$2.4 million, while you can get the Corvette at a starting price of around US$51,000. While the Bugatti is a better performer, most people will never be able to utilize the extra oomph, and in terms of needs the two cars will meet the requirements of most people who like fast cars (apart from those who are true racers). Additionally, the extra 2 million Dollars price overhang over the Corvette only makes sense to those with the money to afford that car.

Same thing when it comes to Canada and the Buga ..I mean, the F-35 and the Gripen NG. While the F-35 has certain areas of capability that are better than the Gripen (with the ONLY major one being a certain level of stealthiness), the Gripen NG meets the requirements the Canadians need, and it is at a fraction of the cost of the F-35.

Unless the Canadians ever need to fight the Russians or the Chinese by themselves, the Gripen NG is more than sufficient for their needs (and if they did have to fight the Russians or Chinese by themselves, the F-35 would not be sufficient anyways to achieve any objectives).

I was totally against the US cutting down the F-22 numbers, but when it comes to Canada and the F-35 the Canadians would be absolutely stupid to not consider opting for another platform (e.g. the Gripen NG or the SuperHornet) over the F-35.

9 posted on 01/08/2013 2:41:48 AM PST by spetznaz (Nuclear-tipped Ballistic Missiles: The Ultimate Phallic Symbol)
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To: spetznaz

I agree with you on everything. Gripen would suit Canada’s environment well, but I still think they should have a squadron of Super Hornets for away games.


11 posted on 01/08/2013 3:19:11 AM PST by Mr. Blond
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To: spetznaz

No doubt they should consider it, but I find the level of analysis presented in the article laughable.

Again, if Canada needs to fly missions in contested air space in the first few days of a conflict, stealth is an important part of the mix. I consider that it may take over a day to get the US involved (if under current administration, that ever happens. I don’t have a lot of love for current administration.)

After the first few days, assuming US air dominance is put in play, the Gripen would be a useful auxilary platform. Before then: nearly worthless. If Canada wants to depend completely on the US to defend its airspace, then why buy any at all? Zero is a lot cheaper than any alternative.

I would also poke fun at an analysis that depends heavily on max top speed. Max top speed isn’t used much. Simplicity, lightness of pitot inlets limits top speed to about Mach 1.6, but that is not a big factor in air combat because drag/fuel usage is very high there, and heat of SS reduces survivability. Supersonic speed is especially difficult when using many external hard points as the shock waves coming off the external stores interact. Range of supercruise depends on load, which also depends on where in a mission it occurs: Later in a mission, after fuel is burned off and weapons expended, greater SC range can be achieved.

This appears to be using Gripen furnished statistics: Max number of hard points which is critical, until you want max speed, upon which time hard points no longer matter and you can used a figure based on nearly slick load.

Noone knows what war will occur in the future. Smart money buys a range of capability, and attempts to cover weaknesses with diplomacy or spinelessness. I don’t think the proud Canadians like to hand over defense of their country for the first few days to the US, but I may be wrong.


17 posted on 01/08/2013 8:55:08 AM PST by donmeaker (Blunderbuss: A short weapon, ... now superceded in civilized countries by more advanced weaponry.)
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