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To: muawiyah
The EU was always meant to be a political union. First clause of the preamble of the 1957 Treaty of Rome (which formed the European Economic Community) says “DETERMINED to lay the foundations of an ever-closer union among the peoples of Europe” . . . and you can read the rest, including stuff about “eliminat(ing) the barriers which divide Europe” and so on. The Treaty of Maastricht established the “social market economy” as the uniform economy for all its member states.

And back in 2007, Vladimir Bukovsky (a very famous Soviet dissident) compared the EU successfully to the USSR, and even said the EU was worse than the USSR in many respects.

Don’t say that Americans do not understand the EU. It is Europeans for the most part who do not understand it, even though its intent is more than transparent. So yeah . . . communist.
15 posted on 12/30/2012 8:25:45 AM PST by Olog-hai
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To: Olog-hai
Depnds on how you define communist. Having spent a bit of time patroling the border ~ aka 'the iron curtain' ~ and combining that personal experience with my knowledge acquired elsewhere over the years, it seems to me the Western Europeans have not been nor do they intend to ever be communist.

BTW, statements of purpose are not controlling documents ~ you need to look elsewhere for them.

And comparisons of the EU to the former USSR are not new ~ always somebody coming up with some way of discrediting something else by drawing a simile up.

Since the earliest days the USSR operated under the hypothecations of Democratic Centrism. The EU doesn't, but when it comes to quality control systems and a universal commercial code, a bit of Eastern and Central European authoritarianism has crept in. This is exactly why the best you can get in Europe is 'charcoal ash' goat cheese ~ the 'volcanic dust' goat cheese makers having relocated to America.

I really do think you can read the entrails of Europe by checking out the French cheese markets!

18 posted on 12/30/2012 9:09:37 AM PST by muawiyah
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To: Olog-hai
only thing i said Europeans didn't understand was the US uniform commercial code ~ which is an interstate compact ~ and apparently you don't either. Read up on the topic.

Back in the Cold War the Russians had to come up with some common denominator that would allow them to readily send mail to the rest of the world, as well as receive it (since all those systems were changing) ~ there are balance of accounts processes, prohibited plants, etc.

They were at such a loss to figure it out they threw up their hands at a meeting of the governing body of the Universal Postal Union and requested assistance ~ someone gave them a copy of the US international mail manual ~ which they initially adopted word for word including prohibitions on mailing scions (cuttings) to designated areas, e.g. California, Florida,.... We had a laugh riot over it.

over time they figured out how to use those rules. Still, initially they didn't have a designated expert who could even comprehend what was going on in the rest of the world ~ their other points of contact were little different ~ their universities were out of the loop, Soviet engineering and technology was proceeding ahead without feed back from the West ~ that left them some pretty good airplanes with bad jet engines, and even worse, no computer chips worth having except an 8 bit model in Hungary ~ they tried a workaround by writing up a very good OS for that chip but in the end they began installing Western computer chips in their ICBM command and control systems ~ which was positively terrifying to them and us. Eventually Gorbachev moved to the top and Yeltsin's crowd simply abolished the old system ~ Russia became far less menacing since a bit of openness did allow outsiders to tell them about egregious errors that threatened everybody in ways they, the Russians never imagined.

I'm sure some Soviet dissidents knew some things, but even the top guys in the KGB didn't know what they needed to know just to keep things safe.

my neighber who'd been the USSR bag man for the big dogs when they came to DC (he had a roll of $100 bills to buy stuff) decided he'd like to stay here and defected just as the whole system was ready to fall. A lady we hired some years later who'd grown up in the system ~ on military bases with her officer father ~ had also worked in Russian refugee relief in Afghanistan ~ and she had beliefs about 'things' that'd curl your hair ~ rather leftwing, but she really did care about refugees ~ most of us have never met anyone who'd even been a refugee. my neighborhood has many people who'e been late 20th century and early 21st century refugees ~ then there's the guy next door whose brother carried him on his back from the Korean speaking part of China through North Korea all the way to the Pusan perimeter in South Korea back during the war. We were just talking about his experience in the Viet Nam War.

As a child he knew Communism wasn't for him ~ but get him to vote Republican? Now that's difficult.

The way I look at is the way I look at sheep and goats ~ I have a genetic aversion to the meat, but I've talked extensively with folks who grew up depending on every part of a goat or a sheep to live, and they tell me things that I can remember and appreciate. Really incredible what the Navajo are like when they talk about sheep ~ far different than Uzbeks or the old timers back in Indiana.

Politics the world over are like sheep ~depends on how close you can get and which way the wind is blowing. The only people on the planet I've ever met who appreciate the American attitude toward firearms are from Yemen ~ we understand each other at a visceral level that defies explanation to the others.

24 posted on 12/30/2012 3:41:14 PM PST by muawiyah
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To: Olog-hai
only thing i said Europeans didn't understand was the US uniform commercial code ~ which is an interstate compact ~ and apparently you don't either. Read up on the topic.

Back in the Cold War the Russians had to come up with some common denominator that would allow them to readily send mail to the rest of the world, as well as receive it (since all those systems were changing) ~ there are balance of accounts processes, prohibited plants, etc.

They were at such a loss to figure it out they threw up their hands at a meeting of the governing body of the Universal Postal Union and requested assistance ~ someone gave them a copy of the US international mail manual ~ which they initially adopted word for word including prohibitions on mailing scions (cuttings) to designated areas, e.g. California, Florida,.... We had a laugh riot over it.

over time they figured out how to use those rules. Still, initially they didn't have a designated expert who could even comprehend what was going on in the rest of the world ~ their other points of contact were little different ~ their universities were out of the loop, Soviet engineering and technology was proceeding ahead without feed back from the West ~ that left them some pretty good airplanes with bad jet engines, and even worse, no computer chips worth having except an 8 bit model in Hungary ~ they tried a workaround by writing up a very good OS for that chip but in the end they began installing Western computer chips in their ICBM command and control systems ~ which was positively terrifying to them and us. Eventually Gorbachev moved to the top and Yeltsin's crowd simply abolished the old system ~ Russia became far less menacing since a bit of openness did allow outsiders to tell them about egregious errors that threatened everybody in ways they, the Russians never imagined.

I'm sure some Soviet dissidents knew some things, but even the top guys in the KGB didn't know what they needed to know just to keep things safe.

my neighber who'd been the USSR bag man for the big dogs when they came to DC (he had a roll of $100 bills to buy stuff) decided he'd like to stay here and defected just as the whole system was ready to fall. A lady we hired some years later who'd grown up in the system ~ on military bases with her officer father ~ had also worked in Russian refugee relief in Afghanistan ~ and she had beliefs about 'things' that'd curl your hair ~ rather leftwing, but she really did care about refugees ~ most of us have never met anyone who'd even been a refugee. my neighborhood has many people who'e been late 20th century and early 21st century refugees ~ then there's the guy next door whose brother carried him on his back from the Korean speaking part of China through North Korea all the way to the Pusan perimeter in South Korea back during the war. We were just talking about his experience in the Viet Nam War.

As a child he knew Communism wasn't for him ~ but get him to vote Republican? Now that's difficult.

The way I look at is the way I look at sheep and goats ~ I have a genetic aversion to the meat, but I've talked extensively with folks who grew up depending on every part of a goat or a sheep to live, and they tell me things that I can remember and appreciate. Really incredible what the Navajo are like when they talk about sheep ~ far different than Uzbeks or the old timers back in Indiana.

Politics the world over are like sheep ~depends on how close you can get and which way the wind is blowing. The only people on the planet I've ever met who appreciate the American attitude toward firearms are from Yemen ~ we understand each other at a visceral level that defies explanation to the others.

25 posted on 12/30/2012 3:41:38 PM PST by muawiyah
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