Skip to comments.MP says Bloody Sunday murder inquiry is “misguided” (Northern Ireland)
Posted on 12/22/2012 3:41:35 AM PST by Olog-hai
A Conservative MP who served as a soldier in Northern Ireland has questioned the need for prosecutions in the Bloody Sunday killings.
On Thursday, it was revealed that a team of 15 detectives will head up a murder investigation into the 1972 shootings. They will be led by a senior investigating officer who will be based in Londonderry.
Patrick Mercer said he is confused by this latest development and does not know what prosecutions will achieve.
(Excerpt) Read more at bbc.co.uk ...
You do know that this march was not by the IRA, don’t you? And that the violent British reaction to it is what so disgusted many that they gave up on peace, believing that the British only would understand violence returned?
What is he worried about?
They will pin the murders on people who are dead.
Apparently Britain only wants to dig up 40 year-old investigations when they involve Chilean strongmen...
Another U2 song in the wings...
What happened that day was terrible.
But the IRA fired from the Bogside first, and the killings that transpired were an overreaction from the Paras, who thought they were in danger.
Britain has blood on its hands. But so does the IRA.
The IRA were quite happy to use 13 innocent young men as collateral damage to further their cause.
From wikipedia, references there:
John (Jackie) Duddy. Shot in the chest in the car park of Rossville flats. Four witnesses stated Duddy was unarmed and running away from the paratroopers when he was killed. Three of them saw a soldier take deliberate aim at the youth as he ran. He is the uncle of the Irish boxer John Duddy.
Patrick Joseph Doherty. Shot from behind while attempting to crawl to safety in the forecourt of Rossville flats. Doherty was the subject of a series of photographs, taken before and after he died by French journalist Gilles Peress. Despite testimony from “Soldier F” that he had fired at a man holding and firing a pistol, Widgery acknowledged that the photographs showed Doherty was unarmed, and that forensic tests on his hands for gunshot residue proved negative.
Bernard McGuigan. Shot in the back of the head when he went to help Patrick Doherty. He had been waving a white handkerchief at the soldiers to indicate his peaceful intentions.
Hugh Pious Gilmour. Shot through his right elbow, the bullet then entering his chest as he ran from the paratroopers on Rossville Street. Widgery acknowledged that a photograph taken seconds after Gilmour was hit corroborated witness reports that he was unarmed, and that tests for gunshot residue were negative.
Kevin McElhinney. Shot from behind while attempting to crawl to safety at the front entrance of the Rossville Flats. Two witnesses stated McElhinney was unarmed.
Michael Gerald Kelly. Shot in the stomach while standing near the rubble barricade in front of Rossville Flats. Widgery accepted that Kelly was unarmed.
John Pius Young. Shot in the head while standing at the rubble barricade. Two witnesses stated Young was unarmed.
William Noel Nash. Shot in the chest near the barricade. Witnesses stated Nash was unarmed and going to the aid of another when killed.
Michael M. McDaid. Shot in the face at the barricade as he was walking away from the paratroopers. The trajectory of the bullet indicated he could have been killed by soldiers positioned on the Derry Walls.
James Joseph Wray. Wounded then shot again at close range while lying on the ground. Witnesses who were not called to the Widgery Tribunal stated that Wray was calling out that he could not move his legs before he was shot the second time.
Gerald Donaghy. Shot in the stomach while attempting to run to safety between Glenfada Park and Abbey Park. Donaghy was brought to a nearby house by bystanders where he was examined by a doctor. His pockets were turned out in an effort to identify him. A later police photograph of Donaghy’s corpse showed nail bombs in his pockets. Neither those who searched his pockets in the house nor the British army medical officer (Soldier 138) who pronounced him dead shortly afterwards say they saw any bombs. Donaghy had been a member of Fianna Éireann, an IRA-linked Republican youth movement. Paddy Ward, a police informer who gave evidence at the Saville Inquiry, claimed that he had given two nail bombs to Donaghy several hours before he was shot dead.
Gerald (James) McKinney. Shot just after Gerald Donaghy. Witnesses stated that McKinney had been running behind Donaghy, and he stopped and held up his arms, shouting “Don’t shoot! Don’t shoot!”, when he saw Donaghy fall. He was then shot in the chest.
William Anthony McKinney. Shot from behind as he attempted to aid Gerald McKinney (no relation). He had left cover to try to help Gerald.
John Johnston. Shot in the leg and left shoulder on William Street 15 minutes before the rest of the shooting started. Johnston was not on the march, but on his way to visit a friend in Glenfada Park. He died 4½ months later; his death has been attributed to the injuries he received on the day. He was the only one not to die immediately or soon after being shot.
... so, maybe 1 for 14?
This is what the city coroner, retired British Army Major Hubert O’Neill said, shortly after the killings: “This Sunday became known as Bloody Sunday and bloody it was. It was quite unnecessary. It strikes me that the Army ran amok that day and shot without thinking what they were doing. They were shooting innocent people. These people may have been taking part in a march that was banned but that does not justify the troops coming in and firing live rounds indiscriminately. I would say without hesitation that it was sheer, unadulterated murder. It was murder.”
But maybe you know better than him.
We’re in agreement that both the IRA and Britain have blood on their hands, if we’re just talking generally, and not about this, and that what happened here was terrible, and that the IRA used the deaths of these innocent men in recruiting.
But here’s what a British government inquiry found:
“British paratroopers “lost control”, fatally shooting fleeing civilians and those who tried to aid the civilians who had been shot by the British soldiers. The report stated that British soldiers had concocted lies in their attempt to hide their acts. Saville stated that the civilians had not been warned by the British soldiers that they intended to shoot. The report states, contrary to the previously established belief, that no stones and no petrol bombs were thrown by civilians before British soldiers shot at them, and that the civilians were not posing any threat.”
from wikipedia, which I will admit is not the most conclusive and impartial source, but is a place to start. I draw your attention to the conclusion that the British lied immediately after, and that the initial assertion that the British were under attack was false. There was indeed an IRA man who fired at the British, as witnessed by a Roman Catholic priest, but he was later found to be Official IRA, which was the IRA the Provisional IRA felt was doing nothing, hence having to start their own, provisional one. And the British were unaware that he had, and did not target him in all their shooting, so couldn’t have been the excuse for this.
University of Ulster, the primary source? Now who do the universities side with, and especially a member of the European Universities Association? Think very carefully upon that.
Also think very carefully about that mural I posted in the original reply. The IRA were doing the exact same thing in Derry as the PLO and Hamas do. One struggle.
Hence that reminder picture of the mural. The IRA using a PLO/Hamas tactic.
>> They were shooting innocent people
They were scumbags slaughtering non-combatants.
The IRA hid behind civil rights protesters.
Tell me where Ulster is?
The mural is surely reality now, no argument. But this was a march organized by the Northern Irish Civil Rights Association, which was inspired by America’s civil rights marchers. Your own link regarding Martin McGuinness not only doesn’t support your assertion, but asserts that the IRA were not involved with this, and not “hiding behind civil rights protesters”. You’ll be offending many people if you continue to slur innocent dead. This, more than anything, was the incident that caused the end of a peaceful pursuit of resolution of grievances there. Be mindful of that when looking back on it now.
Who is slurring innocent dead? Do you know what PLO/Hamas tactic I was referring to the IRA using?? Using innocents as human shields. (And that is aside from the links of the NICRA to the “Republican” movement, the IRA and the Communist Party of Northern Ireland and other leftist movements such as the Campaign for Social Justice.) One struggle.
Like it or not, the majority of people in Northern Ireland wanted to remain part of the United Kingdom. Now with the European Union owning all of the British Isles, that point is utterly moot since both the UK and the Irish Republic are both reunited under Brussels’ aegis (and nobody in the Republic likes to admit that, although some face the truth), but the European elites will keep this sectarian strife going according to the principle of divide-and-conquer. The Red Hand of Ulster has gone pale.
Believe what you like. The IRA were not using these marchers as human shields, because it was not an IRA march, even clandestinely, as your own link points out. The people that were killed were innocent, and using them to support your argument against PLO/Hamas tactics is twisted and offensive. You are slurring innocent dead. If you like persisting in error, by all means continue.
Here were the main goals of the Northern Irish Civil Rights Association:
- “one man, one vote” which meant extension of the local government franchise from ratepayers to all men and women over 21
- an end to gerrymandering which meant unionists were elected even in districts with Catholic majorities
- an end to discrimination in housing
- an end to discrimination in jobs
- the disbandment of the B-Specials, the Ulster Special Constabulary, which many viewed as sectarian.
If you can find anything in there that is un-American, terrorist, anti-Semitic, or violent, please let me know.
I’m not sure who you’re replying to. The legitimate civil rights organizations know full well that that the PIRA used their agitation for rights as a smokescreen to hide their murderous designs, and were not at all happy about it. If anyone’s angry, blame PIRA, not the messenger for pointing it out.
If you check the link of Olog-hai’s I referred to, you’ll see that this wasn’t the Provisional IRA hiding behind a civil rights march, as you asserted. Since it’s on a post about Bloody Sunday, it’s normally safe to assume that’s what you’re referring to, rather than that you’re just making a general statement, one that just about anyone on this site could agree with. This wasn’t that.
O.K. There was an Irishman assigned to Gen Schwartkopf’s staff during the 1st Gulf War who wrote a book about insurgencies. He claimed the same things I referred to about PIRA.
Sounds like an interesting book. What’s the name?
I’ll believe the facts, and the facts support absolutely nothing of what you claim. Except that I never said that the people who were killed were not innocent; in fact, I never said a word about the people who were killed, and I will hold fast to the matter of their having been used as human shields because that is what the facts point toward.
But by all means, keep quoting Wikipedia with its leftist slant (not that your new quote disavows leftism, mind you, but reinforces it). Madge Davison, assistant organizer for the NICRA (yes, as in community organizer), was a member of the Communist Youth League and the Youth Campaign for Nuclear Disarmament, and later part of the Executive of the Communist Party of Ireland. Kinda makes the NICRA sound a lot like the ACLU, does it not?
I’m limiting this to Bloody Sunday, because I don’t disagree with what else you’re saying about the IRA and leftism in Ireland. But you’ve ignored the facts, including in your own link, and you’re persisting in error and in offense, slurring innocent dead. Shame on you.
This is the same kind of guilt by association used against the tea partiers to this day, where a random kook that showed up at a rally is taken as the ‘real’ identity of the movement.
I have ignored no facts. In fact, I’ve brought a number of facts up and you’ve ignored them, rather, such as the true origin(s) of the NICRA. And there is no shame in saying that the victims of Bloody Sunday were the victims of the IRA ultimately. What is shameful is ignoring the truth and comparing the NICRA with the Tea Party (they are more like the ACLU).
Granted, solving the problems of Ireland 40 years ago with a keyboard on an American site is difficult, as is arguing with someone who has chosen a name from a race of fantasy trolls. Those killed on Bloody Sunday were innocent victims of the British Army, and no other army. The British Prime Minister, ultimate commander of the British Army, has stated so. If we’re not starting with that fact, it makes little difference what else you’re bringing up, regardless of the size of the grain of truth in it or how relevant or irrelevant it is to Bloody Sunday.
I see you’re still in with the whitewash. Leftist groups in the North are associated with the IRA; there is no dissociation from them. How many communists were involved with the Tea Party?
There are many things that the British Prime Minister has said. He has also described himself as a “liberal conservative” and is a big supporter of things like gay marriage and other leftist causes. No need to crack open this Pandora’s box, really.
“These are shocking conclusions to read and shocking words to have to say. But you do not defend the British Army by defending the indefensible.” - David Cameron
Go on trying to defend the indefensible, if you like. Fourteen innocent people were killed. I hope their families don’t read what you’re writing.
What am I writing? That the IRA used them as human shields? You’re parroting the IRA’s position as is Cameron. Never mind mischaracterizing the NICRA while I expose the truth about them, a truth that a lot of their members may not know to this day.
By all means, compare the NICRA to the Tea Party again. How many Tea Party events broke laws? None. Can’t say the same about the NICRA and their communist leadership (Betty Sinclair of the Communist Party being their first chairperson). The IRA was almost crushed until useful-idiot “civil rights/civil liberties” front groups like them came along; then the IRA got a second wind. Back to the “one struggle” mural: the IRA are the same as Hamas.
Like I’ve pointed out, I don’t argue about your presently equating the IRA with Hamas. You are wrong about including Bloody Sunday, January 30th, 1972, in this. And it’s offensive, as has also already been brought to your attention.
The Irish War by Tony Geraghty.
I have never criticized the IRA (even in cases where it is probably merited); until people are in their shoes they should reserve judgment.
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