Replies

Thank you for your response.

RE: insults

It's not a big deal and there was only one that I took as a possible insult to me (asking if I excused Islamist genocide); I was thinking more of the "filthy Turks are genocidal maniacs" remark.

Where have you encountered such people? Are Germans today filthy Nazis and genocidal maniacs? Are the Kurds filthy and genocidal? To wit, "500,000 Armenians Said To Have Perished. Washington Asked to Stop Slaughter of Christians by Turks and Kurds." The New York Times September 24, 1915.

I doubt that anyone will read the rest but I am posting it anyway.. some of it I posted before.

I have read in the past Turkish government statements agreeing that the killing of the Armenians was horrendous but they will not declare it a genocide. (The way that I read this is Turkey understands how critical "genocide" is for Armenia's efforts to get territory and money from the modern Republic of Turkey -- as I understand post-W.W.I history it was the victorious Allies who set the boundaries of modern Turkey -- so why blame modern Turkey for taking Armenian territory?)

Nothing excuses what happened to the Armenians nor does it excuse any crimes of the OTTOMAN EMPIRE.

As for the word "genocide".. IMO

We (the U.S.) have enough problems. Turkey and Armenia are neighbors. Let them settle there. I am tired of and don't like it that it's our Congress / government that they are fighting over
-- especially the demands of both Armenia and the Armenian diaspora here in the U.S. that the United States of America adopt resolution after resolution condemning Turkey for genocide when both Armenia and the Armenian diaspora here in the U.S. apparently know that Recognition of the Armenian Genocide by Turkey is a secondary issue (– interview with Harut Sassounian an Armenian living in southern California).
[Excerpt ]"The real purpose of the resolution is not recognition of the Armenian Genocide, but a political struggle – the issue of which side has a larger political capital in Washington. . . . [T]he admission of the Armenian Genocide by Turkey is an issue of secondary importance for us. . . . our lands were seized and our 3,000-year-old culture was destroyed. . . . Therefore, our true demand is compensation for this injustice. . . . Now specialists must study the lawyers’ advice and decide which issue should be submitted to which court, as there is the International Court of Justice, European Court of Human Rights, US Federal Courts, etc. This is a most important issue. It must be studied with all seriousness, because, if we lose in court, Turkey will claim that Armenians have no legal demands."
From wiki graffiti:
There is general agreement among western scholars that over 500,000 Armenians died between 1914 and 1918 [end of W.W.I]; other estimates vary between 600,000 to 1,500,000.
There were 6 million excess civilian deaths due to war related malnutrition and disease . . . The war brought about malnutrition and disease caused by a disruption of trade resulting in shortages of food; the mobilization for the war took away millions of men from the agricultural labor force cutting food production. The civilian deaths listed below include the Armenian Genocide; but do not include deaths during the Turkish War of Independence [following WWI, modern Turkey was created by a revolt against the W.W.I Allies' occupation of Turkey (mostly by Greece I think.)] as I understand post-W.W.I history it was the victorious Allies who set the boundaries of modern Turkey.)
Total Ottoman Empire W.W.I civilian and military deaths 2,921,844; civilian deaths 2,150,000.
The Turks rightly point out that a hell of a lot of Turks died too. It was W.W.I that included Germany and the Ottoman Empire at war with European Allies and Russia that included Armenia. Even after the 1917 Russian Revolution I think the Ottoman Empire - Armenia war continued.

I am not a historian but I can read and there is a hell of a lot more to this issue than screaming insults at Modern Turkey

for the crimes of the OTTOMAN EMPIRE -- wait to see if the AK Party gets away with converting the modern Republic of Turkey to an Islamic "Republic" then scream at them.

I’m human, & if I feel the need to apologize, I will.

OTOH, I’m sure that you’re aware that we’re not alone on these threads.

As for watch what is going on in Erdogan’s republic:

Turkish Jews Forced to Choose

by Joel Himelfarb • Dec 17, 2012 at 6:48 pm

Turkey’s National Intelligence Organization (MIT) is investigating the possibility that five Turkish citizens (all apparently Jewish) cooperated with Israel during the May 2010 raid on the Mavi Marmara ship, part of a flotilla attempting to flout Israel’s blockade of Hamas-ruled Gaza. Passengers attacked IDF commandos with knives, clubs and other weapons as they attempted to board, triggering a brawl in which nine Turkish Islamists died.

MIT believes the five suspects either assisted Israel Defense Force troops boarding the ship or participated in the subsequent interrogation of activists in Israel.

Despite its longstanding terrorist links, the Istanbul-based IHH, the charity that helped drive the Mavi Marmara clash, has received strong support from Turkish Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan. Weeks before the ship sailed, Erdogan told flotilla organizers he would support their efforts to break Israel’s “oppressive siege on the Gaza Strip.”

IHH officials have sought to focus investigators’ attention on the purported treachery of Turkish Jews. Ugur Yildirim, an IHH attorney, claimed Turkish citizens wearing IDF uniforms had been brought in to act as Israeli interpreters. IHH Deputy Chairman Huseyin Ersoz said that once the names were published, “everyone will know who the Turkish Jews are that served in the Israeli Army and killed Turkish civilians on the Mavi Marmara.”

According to Rafael Sadi, spokesman for the Association of Turkish Immigrants in Israel, Turkish authorities “are trying to intimidate the Jews” and to send Israel a message that if Turkish government demands for an Israeli government apology aren’t met, the Turkish Jewish community could suffer the consequences.

This follows the start of last month’s trial in absentia of four former senior Israeli commanders over the ship clash. In what Israeli officials describe as a “show trial,” former IDF Chief of Staff Gabi Ashkenazi; former Navy Commander Eliezer Marom; former Air Force Commander Amos Yadlin; and former Air Force intelligence chief Avishay Levi face up to 18,000 years each in prison.

The Jewish population of the country, just over 80,000 in 1927, has fallen to no more than 20,000 today. Paris-based researcher Rifat Bali, who closely monitors Turkish Jewry, said in a recent interview that in the wake of the flotilla incident, a growing number of conspiracy theories have appeared in the Turkish media, and the nation’s tiny Jewish community has come under mounting pressure to support Erdogan and to denounce Israel.

Some Jewish journalists have declared their hostility towards Israel and expressed their solidarity with the Palestinians. For his part, Erdogan alternates between vowing to “protect” Turkish Jewry on one hand and labeling Israel a “terrorist state” on the other. Given the Islamist leader’s fierce hostility towards Israel, Turkish Jews who want his protection will likely think long and hard before saying positive things about Israel.

~~ I’ll keep watching.