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To: DoughtyOne

What bothers me about this, is that there seems to be a mindset by law enforcement that nobody else is qualified to use lethal force but them.


I don’t believe this is true based on my experiences in law enforcement and I was one of the firearms instructors that set up the active shooter training for a 300+ officer department.

I think the major concern for law enforcement is having non-uniformed folks - either CCW civilians or detectives/off-duty LEO’s on scene with firearms drawn. I always worried I would shoot the wrong person (like the federal agent killed by the retired cop in NY wrestling with a robber) or get shot by another officer or armed civilian when I responded.

I am all for CCW and I have never had any misconceptions about my ability to protect everyone. I believe everyone has a God-given right to protect themselves.

However, I get tired of people blindly spouting off that one person with a CCW could stop anything without collateral damage. Critical incidents involving firearms are a tricky business for both law enforcement and military and making a 50ft shot with a handgun in a crowded mall is not as easy as the arm-chair Rambo’s claim.

If you think I am full of crap just ask Ayoob or one of the senior trainers at the Gunsite Academy. They will say the same thing.

If the story is true about the guy at the Clackamas mall shooting who did not take the shot I give him kudos. It is possible he influenced or impacted the thinking of the shooter by simply assuming a good tactical position while recognizing his own limitations. Had the shooter continued this gentleman gave himself a tactical edge (and a stable platform) from which to engage and that demonstrates an excellent mental foundation for concealed carry.

I teach my civilian classes and LEO’s that pulling the firearm out is the easy part.... putting rounds on target with adrenaline pumping through your mind and body is the hard part. The difficulty is multiplied in a crowd with panicked people. I know guys who were expert shots on the range that could not shoot for crap when it counted. I saw officers that were not all that great on the range that were cold as ice and did not miss when it counted. You never know.... it’s tricky business and I agree with the best trainers out there - mental conditioning is the most important thing.

The video of Columbine showed how chaotic the situation can be and you would have needed to be very close to the shooters to engage because there were students running all over the place. Most of their shots were at close range against targets that froze or tried to hide in plain view. You would have needed to advance on the shooters and likely draw their attention - you would worry about shooting a kid trying to run away in your field of fire - they did not give a damn. They had the advantage.

Just food for thought. Active shooting against an armed opponent requires many working parts under extreme duress. It is easy for someone to write one sentence differing with what I just wrote, but I bet they have either not experienced it or given it half the thought they should.

I would urge anyone to be prepared to protect themselves, but never think simply having a firearm or access to a firearm will do the trick. Conditioning and practicing is just as important as carrying.


19 posted on 12/15/2012 2:04:40 PM PST by volunbeer (We must embrace austerity or austerity will embrace us)
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To: volunbeer

Great, informative and interesting post. Thank you.


20 posted on 12/15/2012 2:18:27 PM PST by manic4organic (It was nice knowing you, America.)
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To: volunbeer

You seem to be more thoughtful about this and also have more experience than a lot of people around here. What do you think are some possible solutions to reduce the likelihood of these mass shootings, especially at schools?


22 posted on 12/15/2012 2:25:37 PM PST by wideminded
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To: volunbeer

I have law enforcement experience, and consider myself to be a pretty cool and calm guy. I recently when throught he FBI Citizens Academy. In the “shoot/don’t shoot” excersize I was the team leader. My thoughts were, “there’s nothing to this”. When the bad guy came around the corner with his orange gun I did shoot, and I did hit him, but much to my surprise I think adrenaline actually shot out of my ears. I can only imagine what it would be like in real life. There is no greater rush than knowing you have about a tenth of a second to decide whether to shoot or not. And people will be second guessing your decision from the comfort of their offices for years to come.


24 posted on 12/15/2012 2:58:55 PM PST by suthener
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