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NYPD: Ricochets Wounded Bystanders in Jeffrey Johnson Shooting(Video of shooting at site)
The Truth About Guns ^ | 25 August, 2012 | Robert Farago

Posted on 08/25/2012 7:11:50 AM PDT by marktwain

The security cam video of Jeffrey Johnson’s final moments have hit the ‘net. At the same time ABC is reporting that “[Jeffrey Johnson] was cut down in a hail of 16 bullets that left Johnson riddled with 10 bullet holes.” Sixteen (shots fired) minus 10 (bullet holes in the perp) leaves six (rounds). How did police fire wound nine bystanders? “Some of the 10 bullet holes were exit wounds, authorities said.” Deputy Police Commissioner Paul Browne added that it was “very likely” all nine bystanders were “hit by police gunfire or ricochets or fragments from the planters that were hit by bullets.” The media outlet’s reporting “significant damage” to anti-car bomb cement flower pots lining the nearby curb. Will we ever know how many injuries were caused by ricochets and how many by direct hits?


TOPICS: Crime/Corruption; Culture/Society; News/Current Events; US: New York
KEYWORDS: banglist; empire; empirestateshooting; jeffreyjohnson; ny
Jeffrey Johnson appears to be the man in the suit to the left of the planters. In the video, two police officers approach from behind Johnson. Johnson draws his firearm and points his gun at the officers, who then open fire.

It does not appear that Johnson ever fires his handgun, so this may be a case of suicide by cop.

1 posted on 08/25/2012 7:12:02 AM PDT by marktwain
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To: marktwain

I wonder if he got away initially, if they would have been able to prove he was the shooter. I know they would have been able to prove he owned the kind of gun that was used in the shooting but, if they weren’t able to find the gun, I wonder if he would have gotten away with it.


2 posted on 08/25/2012 7:21:19 AM PDT by Krankor (used in the shooting but, if they couldn't find the gun)
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To: marktwain

Would frangible ammo have mitigated some of the collateral damage? At least a mix.


3 posted on 08/25/2012 7:21:43 AM PDT by ImJustAnotherOkie (zerogottago)
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To: marktwain

I don’t know about NYPD but a lot of police departments have cut back on their officer’s gun range training and qualification skills.

Police Training During Down Economic Times

By Richard Q Johnson

Whenever the economy goes south, police departments are expected to tighten their belts and reduce the budget size. Some programs can be scaled back with little impact on the community. However, one of the first hit tends to be the police training unit.

The training unit in any law enforcement agency frequently has the largest and most long term impact on a community. Trainers ensure that officers are current with all of their qualifications, but also make sure that officers are kept up-to-date with changes in the law and updates in department policy.

When a department starts to scale back the training unit, officers will be less trained and less able to assist the people they are employed to serve. Instead of well-qualified officers hitting the street, the public gets cops trained to meet the “minimum standard.” Is this a good idea in anyone’s book?

Bad economic times can require that departments trim costs, but the analysis needs to look beyond the short term gains and at the long term impacts of decisions. Training is a continuous process that when curbed can take years to get back on track.

The potential costs of less training includes wrongful arrests, officers using too much force, officers not using enough force, the use of improper investigative techniques and unethical behavior. One incident of any of these problems could result in a lawsuit that will dwarf any potential savings from cutting the training budget.

Administrators should look at areas outside of training to cut before taking the axe to education. For example, upgrades to existing equipment might be delayed until the next fiscal year. Likewise, selling surplus equipment can make up the budget shortfalls. I know my own agency sold several Harley Davidson motorcycles the motor unit no longer used to help cover our own deficit recently.

If a police training unit is hit with a shrinking budget, those officers can look at alternative means of delivering the training. Alternative means may not be as effective, but it is still better than going without any training.

Electronic delivery of information may be a cost-effective way of educating officers on topics that do not have a “hands on” component. Case law updates, for example, might be a good thing to deliver via e-mail, saving precious classroom time for defensive tactics.

Expenditure of ammunition on the firing range is also a costly line item in the training budget. Firearms instructors can work with officers on dry firing techniques to supplement range time. Dry firing isn’t the same as being on the range, but it is still a proven technique for improving accuracy and trigger control. Plus it doesn’t cost a dime.

Lets face it: budget cuts stink. Reduced budgets frequently prevent officers from getting cost of living increases and more often than not cost officers money in the form of higher insurance premiums and increased contributions into pensions. But the highest potential of concern is reduced training.

Training is important as it can keep up alive when the world explodes around us. If we cut our training, it can result in a more dangerous job.

Check out BlueSheepdog.com for more information on police training and officer safety. We offer articles, videos, podcasts, reviews and more for the law enforcement professional.

Article Source: http://EzineArticles.com/?expert=Richard_Q_Johnson


4 posted on 08/25/2012 7:23:53 AM PDT by KeyLargo
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To: marktwain

Had he already dispatched his original target?


5 posted on 08/25/2012 7:24:15 AM PDT by ImJustAnotherOkie (zerogottago)
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To: KeyLargo

Seems like police training these days amounts to watching old episodes of The Untouchables.


6 posted on 08/25/2012 7:30:03 AM PDT by Kirkwood (Zombie Hunter)
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To: ImJustAnotherOkie
Would frangible ammo have mitigated some of the collateral damage? At least a mix.

NYPD are not even allowed to use hollow-point. All their ammo is ball. Hollow-point is too "lethal" and icky and "its only purpose is to kill young black men".

7 posted on 08/25/2012 7:31:40 AM PDT by PapaBear3625 (A deep-fried storm is coming, Mr Obama.)
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To: marktwain
This is the first time I've seen the video, and to me, it looks like the the whole shootout lasted about 3 or 4 seconds, with only one of the officers shooting back.

Consequently, knowing that they knew this guy had just gunned down his target, it's hard for me to fault them for what happened, especially if the bystanders were hit by exiting rounds and/or shrapnel. It also looks like the one cop's aim was good, since Johnson went down fast with multiple wounds.

8 posted on 08/25/2012 7:31:56 AM PDT by Timber Rattler (Just say NO! to RINOS and the GOP-E)
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To: PapaBear3625

Yep, and that’s precisely why there was collateral casualties.


9 posted on 08/25/2012 7:36:48 AM PDT by Timber Rattler (Just say NO! to RINOS and the GOP-E)
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To: marktwain

What? Mayor “BoomBerg” just last week said that we need to have NYC gun laws everywhere!

I guess that guy broke the law, he is in BIG trouble NOW!.

/s


10 posted on 08/25/2012 7:36:55 AM PDT by hadaclueonce (you are paying 12% more for fuel because of Ethanol. Smile big Corn Lobby,)
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To: PapaBear3625

The old Chief of the LAPD, Parker back in the 60s said that he would not allow his officers to carry hollow-point ammo because in his opinion, most cops were shot with their own guns and he thought hollow-points would be more fatal to his officers. Anyway later chiefs changed the policy, understanding that hollow points also lessened the chance of through and through wounds to perps which could cause the rounds to hit bystanders.


11 posted on 08/25/2012 7:46:08 AM PDT by KeyLargo
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To: Timber Rattler

Stay alert, stay alive

Aug 25, 2012

- 3:25 -
Tips to survive getting caught in crossfire

http://video.foxnews.com/v/1803872929001/


12 posted on 08/25/2012 7:52:38 AM PDT by KeyLargo
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To: Timber Rattler

The average shootout lasts only around 5 seconds.


13 posted on 08/25/2012 8:01:59 AM PDT by Jack Hydrazine (It's the end of the world as we know it and I feel fine!)
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To: PapaBear3625

It sounded like ball ammo. Therein lies the cause. Why on earth? PC Kills.


14 posted on 08/25/2012 8:06:51 AM PDT by ImJustAnotherOkie (zerogottago)
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To: marktwain

The NYPD has a long history of inaccurate shooting. Two years ago a gunfight erupted in NYC and 125 shots were fired. No one was hit.

About three years ago, a perp took 21 9MM rounds before the fight stopped. He survived and holds the NYC record for highest number of shots taken without expiring.

Hollow points, .45 ACPs and frangibles are probably not the most optimal for this crowd.


15 posted on 08/25/2012 8:15:22 AM PDT by buffaloguy
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To: hadaclueonce

Interesting our troops are mindful of collateral damage abroad with one shot one kill, but Bloomberg’s thugs can go spray and pray without training on crowds of Americans.

Yep, he sure got his guns completely out of control, and, OF COURSE, it had to be A QUEER LIKE BLOOMBERG who had to start the shooting in the first place, because gays HAVE ZERO MANHOOD CHIVALRY VALUE.

IT is all about themselves.

I remember the last psychologist chick who told me men were overprotective of women because it satisfied their sexual ego of protection.

Yeah, with cynical interpretation from liberal psychs like that which make fun of “naive male” domination wants, we are going to go far as a society.

Useful idiots, all of them...


16 posted on 08/25/2012 8:15:22 AM PDT by JudgemAll (Democrats Fed. job-security Whorocracy & hate:hypocrites must be gay like us or be tested/crucified)
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To: marktwain
Sounds like they did things mostly right. Seconds to react to a shooter (could have been part of a terrorist plot); and they took him down instantly.
They can't be blamed that it was in an area with many people. Didn't exactly have the option to say “Hey everyone; please get back. We are about to shoot this person who just killed one person (that we know in the initial seconds) and we want you back while we shoot him”.

They had a few seconds to see, evaluate, and act.

17 posted on 08/25/2012 8:20:48 AM PDT by HereInTheHeartland (Encourage all of your Democrat friends to get out and vote on November 7th, the stakes are high.)
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To: Timber Rattler

I have watched the video several times and it appears to me that the officer on the left is firing his gun.......but not at the perp. It looks like he is aiming to the left of the perp. The gunman is taken down by bullets from the officer to the upper right. Anybody else agree?


18 posted on 08/25/2012 8:44:40 AM PDT by cornfedcowboy (Trust in God, but empty the clip.)
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To: marktwain

Even with all of the injuries coming from the police, it is very difficult to fault them for what happened. The man stopped in a crowded place, saw them, and pulled his gun. Once that happened, the police really didn’t have many options. Maybe they could have just rushed him and tackled him, but I won’t fault them for not doing it. Perhaps the best they could have done is to rush up to him more quietly and tackeled him unaware before he could see them, but I’m not sure they even knew who the shooter was until he pulled his gun. He was just another man in a suit.


19 posted on 08/25/2012 8:58:42 AM PDT by Vince Ferrer
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To: cornfedcowboy
... it appears to me that the officer on the left is firing his gun.......but not at the perp. It looks like he is aiming to the left of the perp.

Yes, I thought the same thing.

20 posted on 08/25/2012 9:03:00 AM PDT by MileHi ( "It's coming down to patriots vs the politicians." - ovrtaxt)
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To: marktwain

Do any PDs carry hollow-point anymore?


21 posted on 08/25/2012 9:09:20 AM PDT by VeniVidiVici (Congrats to Ted Kennedy! He's been sober for two years now!!)
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To: VeniVidiVici; All
Do any PDs carry hollow-point anymore?

My understanding is that most police departments use hollow-point ammunition. It is only a few backward departments in New Jersey and New York that insist on using full metal jacketed bullets for the sake of political correctness.

22 posted on 08/25/2012 9:24:34 AM PDT by marktwain
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To: Timber Rattler
it's hard for me to fault them for what happened

I can fault them with some of the blame (and my dad is retired Los Angeles PD). They initiated the contact with the subject on a busy sidewalk when they knew he was armed and dangerous. If the info is correct, they are knowingly carrying ball ammo with a much higher risk of over penetration. They are going to get hammered in civil court for negligence and disregard for public safety (if they don't settle first).

Does shooting 9 innocent people make it okay for police to do their jobs? At what point is it excessive? If two civilians with a CCW had done this, they'd be in jail right now.

23 posted on 08/25/2012 10:07:38 AM PDT by Azeem (There are four boxes to be used in the defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury and ammo.)
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To: Timber Rattler; sickoflibs; stephenjohnbanker; NFHale
looks like the one cop's aim was good, since Johnson went down fast with multiple wounds.

my bet is that the cop on the left, shooting two handed scored the *good* hits, and the cop on the right, shootin one handed and backpeddalin scored the bystander hit...

9mm hardball would make all the rounds problematic for the backstops...

24 posted on 08/25/2012 9:26:20 PM PDT by Gilbo_3 (Gov is not reason; not eloquent; its force.Like fire,a dangerous servant & master. George Washington)
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To: Timber Rattler; TurboZamboni
" It also looks like the one cop's aim was good, since Johnson went down fast with multiple wounds. "

There's another video from the NY Daily News in which it appears that while he went down fast, he did not die immediately...

(30 second ad to start, rest not for the faint of heart).

25 posted on 08/25/2012 11:33:25 PM PDT by Yehuda (http://jewpoint.blogspot.com)
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To: Yehuda

good angle of the street showing the ‘cop view’ direction they shot...besides that, i thought the ‘rollover’ from the shooting vid was a bit odd, guess he wasnt dead, but they stood over him waiting ...


26 posted on 08/26/2012 6:02:07 AM PDT by Gilbo_3 (Gov is not reason; not eloquent; its force.Like fire,a dangerous servant & master. George Washington)
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To: PapaBear3625; LucyT; little jeremiah; azishot; Flotsam_Jetsome; justiceseeker93; FARS
Hollow-point is too "lethal" and icky and "its only purpose is to kill young black men".

Meanwhile, government agencies are ordering hollow-point ammo exclusively!

DHS: 2 X 750 mil H-P rounds

SSA: 174,000 H-P rounds

Too many Whiteys to "thoroughly" kill, I guess!

Where's the Fourth Estate? The Fifth Column's day is coming soon to the theatre near you.

27 posted on 08/26/2012 6:58:50 AM PDT by melancholy (Professor Alinsky, Enslavement Specialist, Ph.D. in L0w and H0lder)
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To: marktwain

If you watch carefully, the planter has plants falling when it’s behind the shooter. possible near misses or going through his body.


28 posted on 08/26/2012 7:49:06 AM PDT by TurboZamboni (Looting the future to bribe the present)
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To: Gilbo_3; Timber Rattler; sickoflibs; stephenjohnbanker; Travis McGee

Ok...just so I’m clear here...

“Crazed Gunman” opens fire, shoots 10 people = bad, bad, need more gun control, media orgasms all over the air for two weeks straight, notorious anti-gun Mayor goes on a public crusade in righteous - RIGHTEOUS, I say - indignation...

“Crazed Gunman” opens fire, shoots one person, COPS open Fire, shoot nine (9!!!!) innocent bystanders = media goes quiet...and hey, it’s OK, after all...at least the Crazed Gunman didn’t shoot them...crickets chirping....

I got it...yeah....makes perfect sense.

Remind me NEVER to visit New York when “crazed gunmen” are around....

Oh...wait...make that when NYPD is around...


29 posted on 08/26/2012 2:13:42 PM PDT by NFHale (The Second Amendment - By Any Means Necessary.)
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To: NFHale

Remind me NEVER to visit New York when “crazed gunmen” are around....

Oh...wait...make that when NYPD is around...


Protect and serve isn’t supposed to be about putting innocent bystanders at risk while cops play macho man. The take down should not have been armed and confrontational if it was to be done on a busy street (which it wasn’t). The NYPD put the public at complete risk and the fool for mayor tries to make it a case for more gun control. No Bloomberg it is a case of his ill trained PD dealing with this in an incompetent manner. The PD should never instigate a public confrontation on a busy street and that could have been far more disastrous than the original shooting.


30 posted on 08/26/2012 6:27:06 PM PDT by apoliticalone (Honest govt. that operates in the interest of US sovereignty and the people, not global $$$)
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To: Gilbo_3

: )


31 posted on 08/27/2012 8:00:45 AM PDT by stephenjohnbanker (God, family, country, mom, apple pie, the girl next door and a Ford F250 to pull my boat.)
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To: NFHale; Gilbo_3; Timber Rattler; sickoflibs; stephenjohnbanker; Travis McGee

” Remind me NEVER to visit New York when “crazed gunmen” are around....”

I have this problem licked. I never go to New York for any reason whatsoever....


32 posted on 08/27/2012 8:18:49 AM PDT by stephenjohnbanker (God, family, country, mom, apple pie, the girl next door and a Ford F250 to pull my boat.)
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To: apoliticalone

“...and the fool for mayor tries to make it a case for more gun control. ...”

Bloomberg is a pure grade-A POS. He never misses an opportunity to dance in shooting victims’ pain and use it for his agenda.

I hope the families of the wounded people sue the b*lls off that POS personally, and the department in general.


33 posted on 08/27/2012 8:49:10 AM PDT by NFHale (The Second Amendment - By Any Means Necessary.)
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To: stephenjohnbanker; Gilbo_3; Timber Rattler; sickoflibs; Travis McGee

It just makes me want to puke that there’s ZERO media outrage when innocent folks get wounded by cop gunfire; but they lose their minds in scripted, carefully rehearsed and prepared outrage if it would have been the “crazed gunman” with his “arsenal”.

Sorry for the people wounded either way; these are people just going about their everyday lives and get caught in the middle of a swarm of lead. Just goes to show you, even in gun control paradises like Mayor Bloomberg’s little fantasy world, people still hurt.


34 posted on 08/27/2012 8:58:36 AM PDT by NFHale (The Second Amendment - By Any Means Necessary.)
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To: NFHale

Indeed.


35 posted on 08/27/2012 9:32:24 AM PDT by stephenjohnbanker (God, family, country, mom, apple pie, the girl next door and a Ford F250 to pull my boat.)
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