Decision by 2 Officers to Open Fire in Busy Midtown Leaves Bystanders Wounded

New York Times ^

[familyop]

Not all men get hysterical in risky situations. During the '70s and before, many police depts. tried to hire men who had combat specialty training from military service. Now they prefer politically correct civilians and rear echelon folks who "want to see some action."

I recommend that anyone who is really clean (and clean minded) and wants to get into police work beware of municipals and counties. Try the DEA or FBI instead.

[familyop]

Here’s the politically correct version of the story.

Gunman kills coworker & bystander at Empire State Building, wounds 7 others
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2922352/posts

[barney10]

“the police panicked ...they were not well trained” ... I would like to know how you know the breadth of their training and psychological state? The video showed two of the officers taking care of business in a short period of time. They did not appear to out of control or in a state of panic on the film?

[tumblindice]

Yep, only a shot to the head bone is a sure thing.
Massad Ayoob may have written the best account of the Miami FBI shoot-out but this is good:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1986_FBI_Miami_shootout

“Although both Matix and Platt were hit multiple times during the firefight, Platt fought on and continued to injure and kill agents.”

And this: http://www.firearmstactical.com/briefs7.htm

One of the dirt-bags actually had a coronary arterie punctured but continued to fight for several minutes.

[fortheDeclaration]

It was the right decision.

[Dick Bachert]

This event just confirms a recent study of FBI data that you're more likely to be shot by the cops — when they show up — than by the perp.
Makes me want to surrender my guns (if I had any). How about you.

[John S Mosby]

Watch the video. Observe the movement contemporaneous with the engagement. They had to watch a lot of movement and still center mass. You see the gunman fold over first then there seems to be a neck tap that collapses him. Majority of wounds to bystanders were in lower extremities, meaning most likely fragmentation and ricochet. Full ballistics report will be of interest.

It wasn't target shooting. Immediately behind the target, was 5th Ave. rush hour traffic, a bus pulling up and stopping briefly at the curb and people crowding the sidewalk prior. In the space of what is exactly 6 seconds: timer on the video, you can see he turns to look behind him and the officers challenging him, he pulls his pistol and they both fire with one officer facing more to his front the other to his side-then gunman folds in the middle and drops dead flat to the concrete on his back--6 seconds.

Noise, high sidewalk traffic, and in front of the Empire State Bldg. For patrol officers on rotation, and not SWAT, pretty damn good. And no matter what the NY slimes says, they were right to fire when the dude drew. FWIW witnesses close at hand reported three shots from the gunman then 10-15 from the two officers.

[paul51]

I don’t believe it. In 28 yrs on a large metro force, someone would have taught you not to make a felony stop with your thumbs in your butt

[Edward Teach]

...only the police and the military should have guns, eh?

[nicmarlo]

What I’ve been scratching my head about all day: NYC has very strict anti-gun laws. Since gun control = no gun crimes, how ever could this have happened? /s

[John S Mosby]

Watch the video. They did not panic. My later post to Tupelo covers a variety of distractions. This was on 5th Avenue directly in front of the Empire State Building, morning rush hour— buses, cars, pedestrians. Time to gunman hitting ground from verbal challenge by officers— it is 6 seconds. Watch the video.

[faucetman]

“it pre-supposes the police can shoot to begin with.”

How often do they train at a firing range? When was the last time? How did they do? I want to know the answer to these questions.

Seems to me that they can't hit what they are shooting at or they panicked and couldn't hit what they were aiming at, IF they aimed at all.

[fight_truth_decay]

"The gunman then stood over the victim and fired again. “He just kept shooting him,” said the witness,....The shooter nonchalantly walked east on 33rd Street and appeared to reload his handgun after gunning down his first victim, Ratzlaff said. “He just walked like nothing happened,” Ratzlaff said. When a passerby tried to stop the gunman, he was shot too."

I guess the cops wait for further victims..not a good situation. Source

[familyop]

"And would you follow someone who just murdered some guy with your weapon holstered?"

Maybe they didn't pull while on a busy street before seeing him. It's even possible that they didn't receive information from a caller or dispatcher on enough of what was going on, if they were responding to a call at all. Some situations in reality are radically (even bizarrely) different from others, although television stories often present more similar situations. I agree that more range training can help for anyone who might get into a firefight.

[John S Mosby]

I believe your service. Know quite a few LEOs as well as extensive combat hardened vets and speCops(real ones not the wannabees and fakes). Any database you look up-- the majority of municipality/county officers never have had to fire their weapon in line of duty (other than range time), even less w/ FBI.

This is testimony to the training, and practiced restraint of officers-restraint which has led to a lot of officers being killed. With the advent of SWAT and undercover/gang units this figure is changing.... but it has been shown it is not due to the officers firing first. Your experience flies in the face of several here who have watched too much television, and think they are experts.

[vette6387]

“How many rounds did they squeeze into bystanders after the guy was dead? 10 feet seems close enough that that the first couple shots should have already done the job.”

Exactly, We had a similar situation here in Danville, CA where the cops thought a guy in a car in a service station late at night “was going for a gun in his glove compartment,” so they opened fire to the tune of 24 rounds, twelve of which hit and killed the motorist. Luckily it was late at night so the only damage ( other than that inflicted on the motorist ( who died at the scene) were holes in the station itself. Never did get the real story about the supposed existence of a firearm. Cops are trigger happy when then get the chance.

[Spktyr]

To be fair, NYPD issue pistols are required to have a 13 pound trigger pull. Hard to be accurate when you have to fight your weapon to get every round off.

[dragnet2]

Maybe they didn't pull while on a busy street before seeing him.

Witnesses were pointing the suspect out to the LEOs, and the reason why they were approaching him. They knew someone was just murdered in the immediate area and witnesses brought their attention to the suspect, who was walking away from the scene. They were going right for the suspect, with their weapons holstered.

[AlmaKing]

I’ve read all the arguments here, some good, some bad.

I still think 16 shots is too many.

7 hits out of 16 isn’t acceptable and wounding 9 citizens while taking out 1 man isn’t acceptable. All of us on here have to meet much higher success rates in our professions.

I think that’s what most people are trying to say on here to the police. That message has to be taken seriously by the police.

Lastly, civilians were not shot; citizens were shot. NYC is not a battlefield. I’ve had enough of hearing this ‘War on something’ business.

[Secret Agent Man]

Cops suck under pressure. They don’t have personal liability so it’s not a big deal to them. Private citizens are far better shots under the same scenarios, shoot less, hit the bad guy more, and almost never hit bystanders.