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Posted on 08/24/2012 8:25:11 PM PDT by chessplayer
Sixteen rounds fired in five seconds, 7 or 9 of them directly at the three bystanders who were setting on the bench.
The cops moved as they were trained, to protect themselves and fire at the threat. Great, even admirable, but the street was full of bystanders, 9 of whom where shot by the cops in their fusillade. They are cops not soldiers. If there had been no bystanders, I would be praising these guys to the sky. But one cop was firing right at that bench full of citizens, the other was dancing sideways, firing one handed right down a crowded street.
I wouldn’t critisize too much for the bystanders hit by over penetration. The cops are not to blame for the physics of terminal ballistics.
The cop behind the planter was at least stopped and firing two handed. I suspect that the dancing cop hit most of the bystanders, modulo the over penetrations.
Okay, see your point. Down here the whole story was a bit convoluted.
And these two cops absolutely get credit for not doing the standard “back off and set up a perimeter” BS that has got so many people killed. I understand that the new doctrine is “Active Shooter”.
But they still fired wildly (at least one of them, I will suspend judgement on the planter cop after watching the video several times) down a crowded street.
I've been shooting for over 50 years and have competed with handguns - while I believe I have enough "cool" to still perform pretty accurately, I know from experience that even a little extra adrenaline can throw one off. If you are in competition, you can take a breath and compose yourself before it's time to fire - if your life is in danger, it will have an effect. The only question is how much of an effect. The only training that can help stop it is active combat/shooter training and even that is not a sure thing.
Are you suggesting the two LEOs following, coming up behind the suspect, with their weapons holstered, had no idea he was the murder suspect?
Cops are not supposed to panic.
Well, since they are human, we gotta give them a pass on adrenaline.
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Keep in mind, if this is accurate, and I've read multiple reports which seem consistent, after witnesses followed the suspect and told them, "That's the guy that just shot a person to death", approached the murder suspect with their weapons holstered.
And you know their radios were blasting the fact an individual was just murdered in their *immediate* vicinity after many 911 calls went out.
Nonsense. You're already admitting "active combat/shooter training" ..."can help." Then you turn around and beg off the admission by saying it's not a "sure thing."
Pure double-talk.
Again, no one here is really criticizing the cops for shooting; they are being criticized for shooting and missing .
“Panic” does not mean running around like their hair is on fire. It means 7 or 9 shots in maybe four seconds. That isn’t shooting, that is “spray and pray”. It is amateurish, and my main point was that if someone not wearing a government costume did that, the NYT would be crucifying that person.
Our highly trained, overcompensated (especially in NYC) government employees were a far greater menace to the public than the shooter.
Perhaps they got enough range time. Combat shooting training, standard for police, has a variety of scenarios they must pass, and all are in very short time frames, max of 10 seconds. One major standard is 6 shots, six hits in ten seconds against arrayed targets, and that is over 10 seconds. Mossad Ayoub discusses these fully and many others.
With any kind of rapid coordination (besides having a construction worker ID the killer to them) perhaps no shots could have been fired-- but that could not have been achieved by uniformed officers-- the guy drew his 45 and pointed it at them, and as far as they knew also at others. Again, it is 6 seconds total time.
Hopefully you have watched the video. Very adept of NYC police to have released it, so they don't have "armchair" cops second guessing.
Yes Mr. Earp/Wayne/Eastwood-Callahan/Segall/Norris/Rambo - it's insane to think fear of your life, the urge to move to dodge what might be flying your way, the movements of the perp, and adrenaline could possibly hurt your accuracy. I won't speak out both sides of my mouth about it anymore.
That's what training is for, Barney.
The shoot was at ten feet. If the story is correct about the number of rounds, these guys were just pulling the trigger as fast as they could hoping to hit the perp.
I’m not saying the perp should not have been shot, but I actually think that a lot of “mere” chl holders would have had more regard for shot placement and bystanders. And, again, I do not doubt that if you or I had done exactly what these police did the article would mainly be about the danger to civilians of “amateurs” using guns.
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