[Jeff Head]

Actually not.

Many quotes are taken out of context. A lot of information is sourced from the Journal of Discourses and presented as if though it is current Church doctrine, when in most cases it is not, and other cases never was.

When I try and point this out, I am bombared with endless other quotes of similar nature, rediculing and demeaning language, and told I am wrogn, a liar, or decieving people.

Quotes are taken, for example from Joseph Smith when he was in the midst of trying to defend the Church and the people in it in Missouri in the late 1830s from mobs of people and militia, who were driven on by an “extermination order,” by the Governor, Governor Boggs at the time, which was political in its origin, and illegal and unconstitutional IMHO. It indicated that an entire group of thousands of people, men, women and children were a danger to the state, when they themselves were being plundered, raped and pillaged (ie. research the Hahns Mill Massacre), and that those same people who were being victimized were to be “driven from the state or exterminated if necessary.”

Anyhow, in the midst of his trying to organize the defense of said people, in those emotions he indicated that if people continued to do this to him and his followers, he would become as a modern Mohammed to the enemies of the Church. It was a wrong thing to say...but in the circumstances I will give him a pass.

As it was, he surrendered and they took him and arrested him and then moved into the town, pillaged it, some women were raped, some folks were killed, and the rest, about five thousand people had to leave in the dead of winter, and trek 100+ miles across the snow to the river and cross it into Illinois. The suffering and death along that trail left literally a path of blood across the state.

Their land was confiscated and there never has been any recompense for the crimes committed against them.

But, those who want to attack all things LDS, then use this quote to indicate and try and convince people that the LDS Church back then and today is somehow equated to radical Islam.

That is not fair, that is not exhaustive, and that is not complete. It is a clear liberal methodology to seperate, demean and dehumanize and thus to marginalize a whole group of people.

I have been told that I am not a Christian, as if though these people can see in my heart and judge me.

If you want to know what active, faithful LDS believe, attend a church and ask them...not people who are alienated from it and clearly have a slanted opinion of the same. I challenge you to do that and then compare the two.

For example, I had one of these so-called, very active former members tell me that they never heard the words, “Jesus Christ,” mentioned in the meetings. This is simply not true as every main meeting on Sunday has the passing and partaking of the Lord’s Sacrement, which is blessed before hand in a prayer, spoken into a microphone over the loud speaker system, wherein the brad and water or blessed in the name of Jesus Christ that all who partake of it might remeber the suffering of the Son of God, Jesus Christ and always remember Him. This occurs in every sacrement meeting each week in each meeting all year except during conferences which are held 4 times a year.

In addition, every opening and closing prayer is said int he name of Jesus Christ. Before the sacrement is passed there is alweays a “sacrement” song about the atonement of Jesus Christ. Finally, talks from members of the church are given and in most acses one or more are centered on some aspect of Christ’s teachings.

So much for them having been “very active.”

In addition, if the tone of those postings, which is ridiculing, mocking, and demeaning is what you would call “fair,” then you and I have a different definition of the word, and if that is your definition, then there really is not much more to say on the matter between us other than simply leave you with this:

My Wintness for Jesus Christ
http://www.jeffhead.com/jlhwitness.htm

[stpio]

“I am a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. What many call a Mormon. We do have different beliefs about the Godhead. We believe in three, the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost. We believe they are seperate and distinct individuals and turn to the Bible itself of that interpretation.”

~ ~ ~

May I ask you a question? Thanks for sharing your testimony even though you are not Christian and not meant to be mean. The above, this “different belief” is one of them that makes you a non-Christian. There is one God in three persons. Trinitarian, all three are God not just the Father. I don’t see you say, God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Ghost. Belief in the “Holy trinity” isn’t an option.

I might be wrong, is it not true...

Mormonism rejects Christ is divine, that He always was and always will be, instead Mormons believe Our Lord was created by God the Father?

[Elsie]

Good morning, Jeff.

Do you, as a MORMON, have a Temple Recommend?

[Elsie]

Many quotes are taken out of context.

And you MORMONs do not ever seem to be able to post the claimed excised material that should be around the 'out-of-context' MORMON writings.

Standard response: "Oh, we discussed this before; no need to re-hash it here.

[Elsie]

A lot of information is sourced from the Journal of Discourses and presented as if though it is current Church doctrine, when in most cases it is not...

The problem here: 'MOST cases' means that SOME of it was; and that it will now be ignored.

Standard response: "Oh, the JoD isn't SCRIPTURE."

Guess what - neither are the rituals performed in your temples.

[Elsie]

A lot of information is sourced from the Journal of Discourses and presented as if though it is current Church doctrine, when in most cases it is not...

The problem here: PROOF of the 'teachings' of the JoD are presented by multiple OTHER others from MORMON writings.

Standard response: "Oh, we 'may' have taught that then, but we don't now."

Problem: MORMONs can produce NO other 'official' writings that nullify the previous teachings.

[Elsie]

...plundered, raped and pillaged ...

HMmm... Where have I heard this recently?

[Elsie]

... the Lord’s Sacrement, which is blessed before hand in a prayer, spoken into a microphone over the loud speaker system, wherein the br(e)ad and water ...

Weekly ritual.

[Elsie]

It was a wrong thing to say...but in the circumstances I will give him a pass.

Spirit of Apostacy is at your door; wanting to sift you...

[Elsie]

In addition, if the tone of those postings, which is ridiculing, mocking, and demeaning is what you would call “fair,” then you and I have a different definition of the word, and if that is your definition, then there really is not much more to say on the matter between us other than simply leave you with this:

Does Jeff AFFIRM or REPUDIATE the following QUOTES??

---

---

Questions put to Joseph Smith: "'Do you believe the Bible?' [Smith:]'If we do, we are the only people under heaven that does, for there are none of the religious sects of the day that do'. When asked 'Will everybody be damned, but Mormons'? [Smith replied] 'Yes, and a great portion of them, unless they repent, and work righteousness." (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 119).

Joseph Smith: "for the teachers of religion of the different sects understood the same passages of scripture so differently as to destroy all confidence in settling the question by an appeal to the Bible" (from Pearl of Great Price 1:12). "What is it that inspires professors of Christianity generally with a hope of salvation? It is that smooth, sophisticated influence of the devil, by which he deceives the whole world" (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p.270).

 

 

 

Brigham Young stated this repeatedly: "When the light came to me I saw that all the so-called Christian world was grovelling in darkness" (Journal of Discourses 5:73); "The Christian world, so-called, are heathens as to the knowledge of the salvation of God" (Journal of Discourses 8:171); "With a regard to true theology, a more ignorant people never lived than the present so-called Christian world" (Journal of Discourses 8:199); "And who is there that acknowledges [God's] hand? ...You may wander east, west, north, and south, and you cannot find it in any church or government on the earth, except the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints" (Journal of Discourses , vol. 6, p.24); "Should you ask why we differ from other Christians, as they are called, it is simply because they are not Christians as the New Testament defines Christianity" (Journal of Discourses 10:230).

 

 

 

Orson Pratt proclaimed: "Both Catholics and Protestants are nothing less than the 'whore of Babylon' whom the Lord denounces by the mouth of John the Revelator as having corrupted all the earth by their fornications and wickedness. Any person who shall be so corrupt as to receive a holy ordinance of the Gospel from the ministers of any of these apostate churches will be sent down to hell with them, unless they repent" (The Seer, p. 255).

 

 

 

Orson Pratt also said: "This great apostasy commenced about the close of the first century of the Christian era, and it has been waxing worse and worse from then until now" (Journal of Discourses

, vol.18, p.44) and: "But as there has been no Christian Church on the earth for a great many centuries past, until the present century, the people have lost sight of the pattern that God has given according to which the Christian Church should be established, and they have denominated a great variety of people Christian Churches, because they profess to be ...But there has been a long apostasy, during which the nations have been cursed with apostate churches in great abundance" (Journal of Discourses , 18:172).

 

 

President John Taylor stated: "Christianity...is a perfect pack of nonsense...the devil could not invent a better engine to spread his work than the Christianity of the nineteenth century." (Journal of Discourses , vol. 6, p.167); "Where shall we look for the true order or authority of God? It cannot be found in any nation of Christendom." (Journal of Discourses , 10:127).

 

 

 

James Talmage said: "A self-suggesting interpretation of history indicates that there has been a great departure from the way of salvation as laid down by the Savior, a universal apostasy from the Church of Christ". (A Study of the Articles of Faith, p.182).

 

 

 

President Joseph Fielding Smith said: "Doctrines were corrupted, authority lost, and a false order of religion took the place of the gospel of Jesus Christ, just as it had been the case in former dispensations, and the people were left in spiritual darkness." (Doctrines of Salvation, p.266). "For hundreds of years the world was wrapped in a veil of spiritual darkness, until there was not one fundamental truth belonging to the place of salvation ...Joseph Smith declared that in the year 1820 the Lord revealed to him that all the 'Christian' churches were in error, teaching for commandments the doctrines of men" (Doctrines of Salvation, vol. 3, p.282).

 

 

 

More recent statements by apostle Bruce McConkie are also very clear: "Apostasy was universal...And this darkness still prevails except among those who have come to a knowledge of the restored gospel" (Doctrines of Salvation, vol 3, p.265); "Thus the signs of the times include the prevailing apostate darkness in the sects of Christendom and in the religious world in general" (The Millennial Messiah, p.403); "a perverted Christianity holds sway among the so-called Christians of apostate Christendom" (Mormon Doctrine, p.132); "virtually all the millions of apostate Christendom have abased themselves before the mythical throne of a mythical Christ whom they vainly suppose to be a spirit essence who is incorporeal uncreated, immaterial and three-in-one with the Father and Holy Spirit" (Mormon Doctrine, p.269); "Gnosticism is one of the great pagan philosophies which antedated Christ and the Christian Era and which was later commingled with pure Christianity to form the apostate religion that has prevailed in the world since the early days of that era." (Mormon Doctrine, p.316).

 

 

 

President George Q. Cannon said: "After the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints was organized, there were only two churches upon the earth. They were known respectively as the Church of the Lamb of God and Babylon. The various organizations which are called churches throughout Christendom, though differing in their creeds and organizations, have one common origin. They all belong to Babylon" (Gospel Truth, p.324).

 

 

President Wilford Woodruff stated: "the Gospel of modern Christendom shuts up the Lord, and stops all communication with Him. I want nothing to do with such a Gospel, I would rather prefer the Gospel of the dark ages, so called" (Journal of Discourses , vol. 2, p.196).

[SoConPubbie]

In addition, if the tone of those postings, which is ridiculing, mocking, and demeaning is what you would call “fair,” then you and I have a different definition of the word, and if that is your definition, then there really is not much more to say on the matter between us other than simply leave you with this:

Well Jeff, as with every discussion and debate, there is always two sides of the story, both in terms of perceptions and the facts and opinions offered.

And while I would agree with you that at times, there are some unnecessary statements from BOTH sides of this on-going discussion, I, as well as you, the participients of this discussion, and those just reading through the threads can look past the unnecessary comments.

That having been said, why would a church, supposedly speaking for God and started by a founder who loudly and proudly proclaimed that all other Christian sects were, and I am paraphrasing because I cannot remember the exact words of Joseph Smith right now, basically damned? or completely wrong, have to change so many of their teachings over the years?

Christianity, based on the Bible, has not changed.

Yet Mormonism, started by a so-called "Prophet" with a "Vision" from Moroni, is supposed to accurately reflect the Gospel of Jesus Christ.