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Unstable ground: The fine line between self-defense and murder
CNN ^ | 04/29/2012 | Mallory Simon and Ann O'Neill

Posted on 04/29/2012 8:12:19 AM PDT by loucon

Laveen, Arizona (CNN) -- Daniel Adkins knew his son would never leave Lady. So when animal control officers showed up at the door with Daniel Jr.'s yellow lab in tow, "I felt like he was calling out to me for help."

Something was definitely wrong.

Adkins and his wife, Antonia, had searched the neighborhood just hours earlier, tracing their missing son's footsteps down two miles of dusty road to a cluster of strip malls. But they didn't make it as far as the Taco Bell. If they had, they would have come across the flashing police lights and the body of Daniel Jr., lying on the asphalt by the drive-thru window, with Lady by his side.

(Excerpt) Read more at cnn.com ...


TOPICS: Crime/Corruption; Culture/Society; Government; News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: banglist; danieladkins
This is the first national story relating to this event I've seen. The article is not entirely about the Adkins shooting specifically but it does cover it in some detail.
1 posted on 04/29/2012 8:12:24 AM PDT by loucon
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To: loucon

I wonder if there was any video seized from Taco Bell to support the shooter’s assertions that the decedant had a pipe or bat that made him feel that his life was in danger?

If anything comes of this, watch the shooter change his story to that of the dog growled at him menacingly.


2 posted on 04/29/2012 8:22:19 AM PDT by Molon Labbie (A Bounty on Zimmerman, Can Be A Bounty On ANYONE. No NBPP Mob Justice!)
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To: loucon

No weapon was found. Shot because he screamed at someone and air punched.
Sounds a little iffy.


3 posted on 04/29/2012 8:23:24 AM PDT by Yorlik803 (better to die on your feet than live on your knees.)
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To: loucon

No weapon was found. Shot because he screamed at someone and air punched.
Sounds a little iffy.


4 posted on 04/29/2012 8:23:24 AM PDT by Yorlik803 (better to die on your feet than live on your knees.)
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To: loucon

I think this article gives us a lot to think about. I hope none of us is ever in a situation where we have to make a life or death decision...but we never know what lies ahead.........


5 posted on 04/29/2012 8:43:42 AM PDT by basil (It's time to rid the country of "gun free zones" aka "Killing Fields")
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To: loucon

“And that’s really the key issue raised by this sweeping change in the nation’s gun laws: Where should the line be drawn?”

I don’t see this as a change in the nation’s gun laws. You can stand your ground unarmed if indicated.


6 posted on 04/29/2012 8:55:19 AM PDT by KrisKrinkle (Blessed be those who know the depth and breadth of their ignorance. Cursed be those who don't.)
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To: loucon

When liberals don’t like a truth that might ‘sneak out’ they work to ‘complicate’ an issue. It’s another way to lie.


7 posted on 04/29/2012 9:02:16 AM PDT by GOPJ (Obama's father, grandfather and great-grandfather were polygamists.-ALL,including Obama ate dogs!!)
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To: Molon Labbie

where’s the bat or pipe

the shooter is a liar


8 posted on 04/29/2012 9:14:55 AM PDT by yldstrk ( My heroes have always been cowboys)
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To: loucon
(Tin foil hat / on) A murder set up to challenge stand your ground laws. (Hat/off)

Notice that the shooter will not be identified but they had no problem giving Zimerman's name when they thought he was white.

9 posted on 04/29/2012 9:23:59 AM PDT by Drill Thrawl (The United States of America, a banana republic since 1913)
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To: loucon
I suspect this writer of a sabotage by conflation tactic.

The mixture of self defense, castle doctrine, and stand your ground cases is designed to sabotage a necessary law.

No law is a perfect fit for all cases, likely very few textbook cases actually occur. The law is designed to fit in principle and requires judgment to administer.

Overall, stats show that cops are six times more likely to kill an innocent person than civilians using firearms for self defense, and that crime is highest and most seriously violent in states and cities that have strict gun control, while lowest in states with mandatory "shall issue" CCW gun permits.

Civilization was built on the control and elimination of the criminal and maniac, and it will be destroyed by the protection, coddling and growth of the same.

10 posted on 04/29/2012 9:23:59 AM PDT by Navy Patriot (Join the Democrats, it's not Fascism when WE do it and the law is what WE say it is.)
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To: loucon

I think we’re in a transition period and these types of things will be happening for a while. We currently have a society that believes they can do anything they want with no consequences. They have no respect for other peoples’ property. You can tell by the rudeness of people (especially in internet comments) that they have few social skills and are unable to resolve confrontations peacefully.

As time goes on and more people get shot or killed being where they’re not supposed to be or acting in a way they shouldn’t be acting, it will have a tendency to change society’s behavior. The axiom “An armed society is a polite society” will start to sink in.


11 posted on 04/29/2012 9:29:56 AM PDT by Larry - Moe and Curly (Loose lips sink ships.)
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To: loucon

The story is getting a lot of attention at CNN judging by the 360+ comments.


12 posted on 04/29/2012 9:35:20 AM PDT by loucon
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To: Navy Patriot

It was a bit of a jumble. 2 of the cases happened INSIDE people’s homes, so that’s different. No, it is not OK for “kids” to break into a person’s home to steal snacks. I think the guy at the drive through seems to have over reacted. He wasn’t willing to risk running over the dog, but he shot the guy dead? How about backing up?

You know, life stinks and sometimes bad things happen and mistakes are made.

Only crazy liberals think that the law, or the gov’t, or their own “pure” motives can change that.


13 posted on 04/29/2012 9:44:20 AM PDT by jocon307
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To: jocon307
life stinks and sometimes bad things happen and mistakes are made.

An absolute truism, and I believe, one of the reasons for the right to a jury of our peers, not a enlightened, elite, judge or progressive, egalitarian prosecutor.

This part about juries indicated peer wisdom to me:

A jury deliberated three hours before acquitting Gonzales. He spoke in Spanish to reporters after the trial, saying that at the end of the day it was his life or the boy's.

The verdict shocked Druker. He needed to know why the jury agreed to acquit. He spoke to the jurors officially, and then again afterward when he saw them around town. He said he always heard the same answer: They feared losing the right to protect their own homes.

"They said, at the end of the day we can't let these kids think they can come into our house and do that," he recalled. "It was sending out a statement."

14 posted on 04/29/2012 10:02:25 AM PDT by Navy Patriot (Join the Democrats, it's not Fascism when WE do it and the law is what WE say it is.)
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To: Larry - Moe and Curly
We currently have a society that believes they can do anything they want with no consequences.

As time goes on and more people get shot or killed being where they’re not supposed to be or acting in a way they shouldn’t be acting, it will have a tendency to change society’s behavior.

Yep, and the leftists will always use "feelings" to attack these policy laws, they would sacrifice civilization for one sympathetic perp, every time.

15 posted on 04/29/2012 10:18:46 AM PDT by Navy Patriot (Join the Democrats, it's not Fascism when WE do it and the law is what WE say it is.)
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To: loucon

The 2nd Amendment is absolute, but people have an obligation to use that right responsibly. If people use it recklessly, we could lose it.


16 posted on 04/29/2012 10:18:52 AM PDT by Clintonfatigued (A liberal's compassion is limited to the size of other peoples' paychecks)
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To: Clintonfatigued
If people use it recklessly, we could lose it.

Not very absolute then, unless the definition of absolute has been changed.

17 posted on 04/29/2012 10:34:37 AM PDT by xone
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To: loucon
[The fine line between self-defense and murder]

Actually, there is no THICKER line between the two.

This cr@p makes me sick. Idiots.

18 posted on 04/29/2012 10:40:31 AM PDT by Miss Behave (All ways, always.)
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To: xone

If people assert their 2nd. Amendment rights in a reckless way, they discredit that right by undermining the public’s support for it. The Constitution stands to the degree that it still does because the public believes in it.


19 posted on 04/29/2012 10:58:34 AM PDT by Clintonfatigued (A liberal's compassion is limited to the size of other peoples' paychecks)
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To: loucon

One of the things I liked about the Perry Mason novels was that Perry Mason often had clients who lied to him.

This story tends to assume what the family of the ‘victim’ says is true.

I’m waiving the BS flag. For example, in the Arizona case, CNN says:

“While the shooter said he did not believe Adkins would have killed him and his fiancée had he not fired, he also said he feared Adkins was trying to hurt him.”

Arizona law says:

“A. A person is justified in threatening or using deadly physical force against another:

1. If such person would be justified in threatening or using physical force against the other under section 13-404, and

2. When and to the degree a reasonable person would believe that deadly physical force is immediately necessary to protect himself against the other’s use or attempted use of unlawful deadly physical force.”

You cannot legally use deadly force in Arizona unless you believe the other person may be about to use deadly force.

Since the guy hasn’t been charged, either the DA believes he was in significant danger, or there is simply no evidence to use against him.


20 posted on 04/29/2012 11:00:24 AM PDT by Mr Rogers (A conservative can't please a liberal unless he jumps in front of a bus or off of a cliff)
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To: Clintonfatigued
The Constitution stands to the degree that it still does because the public believes in it.

And when the public ceases to believe in it? Sorry, inalienable rights aren't subject to a vote. When the gov't ceases to follow the Constitution, my obligation to obey ceases as well.

21 posted on 04/29/2012 11:03:54 AM PDT by xone
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To: loucon

Kathleen Hoague, a top prosecutor in Miami-Dade County also was thrown by Bloom’s decision.

“We feel the judge abused her discretion,” she told the Herald. “The law does not allow for you to use deadly force to retrieve your property.”

If Lawyerette Hoague is correct, Florida law is in need of revision. The Founders considered private property to have semi-sacred status. The also held that is ever property was not accorded such status, Horrid mischief would ensue.”

We removed property rights, and just as the Founders feared, Horrid Mischief was elected.


22 posted on 04/29/2012 12:02:35 PM PDT by GladesGuru (In a society predicated upon freedom, it is necessary to examine principles."...the public interest)
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To: Navy Patriot

You know, there was a case like this on Long Island, where the shooter was black and the victim was white.

Some teenagers got into some kind of “facebook fight” and somehow some of the white kids ended up at the black kid’s house. The father of the black kid confronted them outside the house, but on his property. Ultimately he shot and killed one of the kids.

I’m sorry I don’t remember the details well, and I can’t think of any of the names. It did get a lot of press in NYC and LI and it might even have been written up at length in the New Yorker or New York Magazine.

I think the shooter got off with what many saw as a slap on the wrist, but I think he did do some jail time.

I do have it good authority (from someone whose father knew the shooter) that the father was an OK guy.

I’m being a bad reporter here, I know. But I just remembered this story, it’s kind of interesting nobody around NY has recollected it and compared it to the Trayvon Martin incident.


23 posted on 04/29/2012 12:04:08 PM PDT by jocon307
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To: loucon

No matter how you slice it, anecdotal evidence is very much a tool of the snake oil salesman.

When we permit the fact that people are not perfect in their decision making to become part of an argument about rights, we are changing the definition of the argument to insure loss.

It is their choice as individuals to arm or not to arm. It is not their option to choose for me.


24 posted on 04/29/2012 12:15:09 PM PDT by Steamburg (The contents of your wallet is the only language Politicians understand.)
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To: Larry - Moe and Curly
You can tell by the rudeness of people (especially in internet comments) that they have few social skills and are unable to resolve confrontations peacefully.

.

"FU"

.

.

; )

25 posted on 04/29/2012 12:28:48 PM PDT by Jeff Chandler (I heard Osama was unarmed and carrying a bag of "Skillets candy" when Obama shot him.)
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To: Larry - Moe and Curly

Everybody knows that “FU” means “Freep You”.


26 posted on 04/29/2012 12:31:02 PM PDT by Jeff Chandler (I heard Osama was unarmed and carrying a bag of "Skillets candy" when Obama shot him.)
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To: jocon307
The case was that of John White, a black man, defending his son at his home.

I reread this case from August 2006, and this time, I figured out that the target of this case was not John White, but gun rights, self defense rights, and racial harmony, all things hated by the progressive Marxist elite ruling class public "servants" America and especially New York.

White was convicted of second degree manslaughter and criminal possession of a weapon. The weapons charge is a typical police state tactic and what 2A was intended to preempt.

White teenagers accused John White's son of threatening to rape a female acquaintance on Facebook, so five white young men went to White's home in the middle of the night to take White's son with them. (You will note here that the MSM makes it difficult to ascertain that the group was five, they make it sound like three, and they fail to point out that the white teens did not make a report, ask for an investigation, inform the police, call 911, or inform any authorities about their accusations or the intent to follow White's son and confront him at his (White's) home.

The young men deny making racial taunts, threats and threats of violence or intimidation, but UNFORTUNATELY there were no unbiased witinesses, especially unnotified authorities, on the scene.

The prosecutor alleged that White should have called 911 even though he had less than three minutes from hearing the commotion outside to when Daniel Cicciaro was fatally wounded. The prosecutor was less concerned that five men had many hours, even days, to inform 911 of the allegations against White's son or their intent to go to his home and take him with them. The rape threat was later proved to have been made by a person that hacked White's son's Facebook account.

White was convicted by a jury divided until the judge said she would sequester them over the hollidays or until a verdict was reached.

The leftist and statist ruling class could win power on a conviction in this case, as it would:

1) Because of the obvious racism, enrage blacks and drive them further to the DemoRat plantation for "justice".

2)Encourage the further erosion of self defense and castle doctrine law that "almost" got White off.

3)Further demonize the possession of guns by civilians.

4)Promote mob assembly to confront those individuals "meriting" disapproval, at their homes (think union demonstrations at private residences).

I conclude White was sacrificed by the Marxist statist "just us" system for the specific purpose of increasing the power of New York State.

I wonder if the Whites and the whites continue to vote DemoRat? I'll bet they do.

27 posted on 04/29/2012 2:17:24 PM PDT by Navy Patriot (Join the Democrats, it's not Fascism when WE do it and the law is what WE say it is.)
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To: jocon307
Some stuff you might find interesting:

Appeal

Debate

Trial

28 posted on 04/29/2012 2:32:25 PM PDT by Navy Patriot (Join the Democrats, it's not Fascism when WE do it and the law is what WE say it is.)
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To: Navy Patriot

That’s the case, very good for finding it. You’d think I’d remember the black guy had been named “White”, but all I could really remember was the white kid was Italian-American.

The man is foolish to align himself with the Nation of Islam, that is for sure. But I’m sure they prey on people who are in bad situations.


29 posted on 04/29/2012 5:30:49 PM PDT by jocon307
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To: xone

The right to keep and bear arms is an absolute.
That would leave open to legal restraints the use
of arms. Thus laws governing where and when a
person may fire a weapon, under what circumstances
a person may shoot another etc. are legitimate
areas of legislative activity. The problem of
course is the agenda driven liberal viewpoint that
conflates keep and bear with use.


30 posted on 04/29/2012 5:38:35 PM PDT by nvscanman
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To: xone

The right to keep and bear arms is an absolute.
That would leave open to legal restraints the use
of arms. Thus laws governing where and when a
person may fire a weapon, under what circumstances
a person may shoot another etc. as legitimate
areas of legislative activity. The problem of
course is the agenda driven liberal viewpoint that
conflates keep and bear with use.


31 posted on 04/29/2012 5:38:51 PM PDT by nvscanman
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To: jocon307
But I’m sure they prey on people who are in bad situations.

Yep, as do Marxist agitators, Communist agitators, MSM agitprop publishers, DemoRat plantation overseers,...

These are all professional agitators of discontent tricking black Americans into supporting the very people who will oppress and eventually kill them, while dividing them from the majority of whites that could care less about race, but a lot about statistics, 2A, self defense, and liberty in America.

32 posted on 04/29/2012 6:22:03 PM PDT by Navy Patriot (Join the Democrats, it's not Fascism when WE do it and the law is what WE say it is.)
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To: Navy Patriot

It is true. The left brings nothing but degradation and destruction where ever it goes.

They’ve helped the blacks just like they’ve helped women.

I think we’ve just begun to really fight back, so I have some hope.

But, I still have a lot of aggravation.


33 posted on 04/29/2012 6:31:02 PM PDT by jocon307
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To: jocon307
I think we’ve just begun to really fight back, so I have some hope.

It took me along time to see just exactly how the Marxists do it, they were very smooth for a long time.

Now they are much more obvious, and I hope their targets will be able to see through the lies.

The free world's fate depends on that.

34 posted on 04/29/2012 6:38:58 PM PDT by Navy Patriot (Join the Democrats, it's not Fascism when WE do it and the law is what WE say it is.)
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To: Navy Patriot
sabotage by conflation Exactly
35 posted on 04/29/2012 7:08:28 PM PDT by cycjec
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To: nvscanman

No doubt.


36 posted on 04/29/2012 8:46:50 PM PDT by xone
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To: loucon

The Daniel Adkins shooting in Laveen AZ sounds like pretty week justification.


37 posted on 04/30/2012 1:07:33 AM PDT by Bizhvywt
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