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To: Eleutheria5

I have been relatively in support of the Armenian claims for years, more out of general sympathy for the scale if their losses than intimate knowledge of the details of the issue.

Lately, while at my local Barnes & Noble library, a glanced through a new book on Russian history, leading up to and during WWI.

In that book, they pointed to a lot of evidence, spelling out Russian funding and intrigue in support of Armenian freedom fighters against the Ottomans and then the Turks.

The views of the author were: the Russians were involved in an attempt to undermine the Ottomans and the Turks for their own - Russia’s, possible benefit, and the Ottomans and later the Turks were not deaf, dumb and blind to this intrigue (stirring up and using the Armenians) by Russia.

I am simply noting that this part of the issue was not something I had known about previously - regardless of the pros and cons regarding the author’s views of the issue.


18 posted on 12/22/2011 1:56:19 PM PST by Wuli
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To: Wuli

No doubt the Russians were doing that, and the Ottomans were aware. It’s the “therefore let’s kill all Armenians” part that is not justified. Likewise, the Ottomans used the Russian birthplace of many Ashkenazik Jews in Israel to attempt to expel every last Jew in Israel. Naturally, the Jews then fought on the side of the British to instead undermine and drive out the Ottomans.

This wholesale collective punishment thing simply backfired on the Ottomans in the case of the Jews. But since Russia lost WW I, their intrigues with the Armenians back-fired on the Armenians, who were slaughtered en masse. But they were not to blame. The Turks were.


19 posted on 12/22/2011 3:32:10 PM PST by Eleutheria5 (Diplomacy is war by other means.)
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To: Wuli; Eleutheria5
Yes, Russia was at war with Germany, the Ottoman Empire was an ally of Germany and not having much success fighting the Tsar's Russian army and Russia had no mercy on Turkish civilians. Armenia was an ally of Russia.

Though the 1917 Revolution took Russia out of W.W.I if I remember history nevertheless the Bolsheviks accepted Russia's ally Armenia as a Soviet "republic."

In the mean time there's Kaiser Wilhelm II's Germany in Turkey.

"German Responsibility in the Armenian Genocide: A Review of the Historical Evidence of German Complicity," by Vahakn N. Dadrian.

I have not read the book. I have read reviews. The author does NOT (repeat, does NOT) excuse the Ottoman Empire -- he documents the German-Turkish alliance that existed at the time of W.W.I. Kaiser Wilhelm II wanted a German - Middle East empire (or at least he wanted German control there). The Republic of Turkey has acknowledged the horror that the Armenians were victims of barbarous Ottoman Empire methods but will not use the word "genocide" for reasons explained in replies above. I honestly believe that Turkey has a valid point asking about the hundreds of thousands of Turk civilians killed by the Ottoman Empire's W.W.I enemies.

"Dadrian thinks that the Armenian genocide is also an issue of international law which the West has failed to address. . . .A commission on these atrocities, which issued its final report on March 29, 1919, accused Turkey and its allies (the Germans) of using barbarous and illegitimate methods against the Armenian citizens. Again, a committee of jurists in 1920, commissioned by the Council of the League of Nations, concluded that the official order to deport the Armenians en masse 'was a violation in international law' (p.l9). Two German generals, Bronsart (on July 25, 1915) and Boemich (on October 3, 1915), who served as members of the military mission in Turkey, are said to be responsible for ordering the Armenian deportation." [My emphasis]

Tens of thousands were forced into Iraq where the Armenians were killed or taken captive (mostly the females) by Kurds. The book contains tons of information and names of German and Ottoman Empire officials and their "barbarous and illegitimate methods against the Armenian citizens."

20 posted on 12/22/2011 4:48:02 PM PST by WilliamofCarmichael (If modern America's Man on Horseback is out there, Get on the damn horse already!)
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