Mississippi amendment on 'personhood' divides Christians

CNN.com ^ | 11/2/2011 | Rich Phillips

[wagglebee]

Precisely, two thousand years ago there was no reference to fertilization regarding conception. They knew women had eggs and the man's sperm was referred to as his seed.

Moreover, NOBODY at that time ever imagined conception occurring outside the womb.

Remember that there were women in the Bible (notably Sara and Elizabeth) who were thought to be barren, but they continued to serve the Lord faithfully and were rewarded with sons.

[GourmetDan]

"If an IUD kills a "fertilized egg", that's abortion, not "birth control"."

It's actually the same with birth-control pills. One of the ways they prevent conception is by hormonally changing the uterine-lining to prevent implantation of the fertilized egg.

That's abortion and, IMO, is the main reason that Christian America has been unable to rid itself of this abortion mentality. Too many 'devout', 'pro-life', Christian women sitting in church every Sunday silently aborting their children through their use of birth-control pills.

Think the accuser doesn't bring that up before the throne of God?

[metmom]

If it’s true that the definition has been changed recently, then I will not recognize it.

If the whole purpose is to allow for abortion, it’s not a legitimate change, IMO.

fertilization = conception

[aruanan]

Precisely, two thousand years ago there was no reference to fertilization regarding conception. They knew women had eggs and the man's sperm was referred to as his seed.

Actually, they didn't "know women had eggs." This is demonstrated by the fact that they referred to the man's semen as "seed." The concept was that he planted a seed in the womb of a woman and it grew into a child, like a seed planted in the ground sprouts and grows into a plant. That is, within the semen were preformed humans that grew within the womb.

[metmom]

Actually, in Genesis 3:15 there’s an indication that a woman having seed was recognized.

The Hebrew word there could easily be translated *seed*.

Different versions use different words. It’s either *offspring*, *descendents*, or *seed*. *Seed* is actually the word of choice for translation and seems to be the closest to the meaning of the Hebrew.

Genesis 3:15
http://bible.cc/genesis/3-15.htm

Strong’s Concordance
http://concordances.org/hebrew/2233.htm

[aruanan]

Actually, in Genesis 3:15 there’s an indication that a woman having seed was recognized.

This is known as eisegesis. You're reading something (that it was a common understanding of the time that women had eggs, referred to as 'seed') into what was written. Some believe this is a prophecy of Jesus being born of a virgin and bruising the serpent's head, though there are no New Testament references to it except by the faintest allusion in Revelation where the author speaks of the dragon going to war with the remnant of the woman's seed who keep God's commandments. So here the reference isn't to Jesus but to multiple individuals. At any rate, it wasn't a characteristic of the general culture back then or of the Israelite culture in particular to believe that women had "seed," as though they could, independent of a man, give birth to a child. That's what would make that figure of speech both so shocking as well as a possible prophecy of a virgin birth. It was something that was completely outside the commonly understood order of nature, unless it was just a common way of saying, "Serpent, the woman's son (seed, because it's a male) is going to kick your ass."

[metmom]

Or, as seems to be usual in God’s economy, all of the above could be correct.

[TheOldLady]

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[IrishPennant]

Only God creates life...please, I respect and appreciate you...just making a personal statement tagging on to your post.

If a scientist creates life, God allowed it under HIS plan. If a rapist creates life through an illegal act, no matter how vile, God directed that. I may get flamed, but I think Nazi Germany was a part of God's plans for a higher level of development. Every bad thing, such as the Obama administration, is of God's plan for development. We do not know light without dark...we do not know day without night, etc, etc...

On a personal note, so you know where I am coming from, I have a child that was born 15 years ago and the first words my wife and I had to hear from the hospital staff was that he may not live through the night. Well, he did because of the grace of God presented a talented surgeon who tried out a little known cardio procedure to save him. Today, 15 years later he is active, healthy and damned annoying at times. And the surgeon who saved him? 5 years ago he passed away at a young age of cancer. It is God's world...let him decide who is a "Being".

[goat granny]

Your right is true, also the right of those that have conceived via IVF have a right to their opinion.

One of my grandchildren was conceived via collection of dads sperm and conceived in an IVf by a doctor and then immediately planted into the woman...our family has been blessed by this child, in the military and loved dearly by everyone.

The idea of personhood at conception will outlaw most contraception. A pregnancy starts at implantation, not fertilization...women miscarry every day, did God cause their abortion. Abortion is a medical word, miscarry is the layman term...Spontaneous abort is a miscarry...why would your god cause a woman to abort...if an abort is threatened (as opposed to a therapeutic abort) should doctors try to stop the threatened abort? Would they then be interfering with gods idea to abort the pregnancy. Perhaps we should stop all vaccines as it was not given the OK in Genesis...

I am just glad your not the one making laws so that you can feel righteous about your opinion...and force those that want children and have difficulty conceiving from seeking recourse to advances made in the last 2000 years..

As I have stated on other threads, the idea of personhood at conception and an outlaw of all forms of contraception is direct catholic dogma. Abortion should not be allowed except in the very rare case of threat to a womans health..It is a rare occasion, but happens. The other legit reason for an abortion is when the fetus dies before birth and should be removed.

Those that believe in strich personhood, what are their thoughts about barrier methods of contraception, via diaphram or condom...if those are to be outlawed also, you can bet the movement is 100% catholic dogma..

[goat granny]

You are mistaken to think in medical terms conception and fertilization are synonymous, One didn't even know when fertilization or conception occurred...One of my pregnancy's was determined by taking the rabbit test. When the rabbit died, we knew conception took place and a fertilized egg had in fact implanted into the uterus..I was then pregnant. Going back even farther, a missed menses was a pretty sure indicator that you were pregnant..but women have missed one period and still not been pregnant. (I once went 57 days and not pregnant.) Periods were NEVER regular.. There are also rare occasions that women have had light periods and still pregnant and the pregnancy was maintained.

[ReformationFan]

“Your right is true, also the right of those that have conceived via IVF have a right to their opinion.

One of my grandchildren was conceived via collection of dads sperm and conceived in an IVf by a doctor and then immediately planted into the woman...our family has been blessed by this child, in the military and loved dearly by everyone.”

That’s wonderful. I believe children conceived in rape, adultery and incest are wonderful too. But just because God can bring something good out of something bad doesn’t mean I am obligated to approve of IVF anymore than I am required to approve of rape, adultery or incest either.

“I am just glad your not the one making laws so that you can feel righteous about your opinion...and force those that want children and have difficulty conceiving from seeking recourse to advances made in the last 2000 years..”

Boo hoo. Oh boo hoo. Cry me a river. Boo hoo.

Having a child is a privilege bestowed by God as He(not your or I) sees fit. It’s not a “right” or an “entitlement” bestowed by the government. Besides, there are countless children that already exist in this world who need parents. Adoption is a beautiful thing for infertile couples.

“As I have stated on other threads, the idea of personhood at conception and an outlaw of all forms of contraception is direct catholic dogma. Abortion should not be allowed except in the very rare case of threat to a womans health..It is a rare occasion, but happens. The other legit reason for an abortion is when the fetus dies before birth and should be removed.

“Those that believe in strich personhood, what are their thoughts about barrier methods of contraception, via diaphram or condom...if those are to be outlawed also, you can bet the movement is 100% catholic dogma.. “

You’re right about it being 100% catholic dogma. And this is one issue where I as a Protestant think the Roman Catholic Church is correct on. In fact, the majority of Protestantism held to the same opinion as the RCC until around 1930.

[goat granny]

Good for you and your faith.

I mentioned nothing about rape, incest or adultery so your remarks on that are irreverent...boo hoo on you also...:O).

you wrote: But just because God can bring something good out of something bad doesn’t mean I am obligated to approve of IVF anymore than I am required to approve of rape, adultery or incest either.***

I never said you were obligated to believe anything, so that remark is not pertinent to what I said.

Those that don't believe as you do should not have legislation to enforce your beliefs...That is the same attitude that brought about Roe v Wade and is just as disgusting to many...to each his own...live your little life according to your beliefs. No one is stopping you..Your the one that wants no contraception for anyone. Opposite side of the same Roe coin...enforce by government your beliefs on others. Use contraception = kill a child...rather radical...

I was a Lutheran long before I became a catholic, never heard the silliness you spout about Protestants beliefs in all my times at church...wasn't even on the radar and that would be during the 50's....

[ReformationFan]

“I mentioned nothing about rape, incest or adultery so your remarks on that are irreverent.”

Irreverent? I’m not required to revere IVF, rape, adultery or incest.

“I was a Lutheran long before I became a catholic, never heard the silliness you spout about Protestants beliefs in all my times at church...wasn’t even on the radar and that would be during the 50’s....”

Which only means your Lutheran and Roman Catholic priests failed to instruct you properly. Either that or you never paid attention.

[goat granny]

Ah yes, you are the only one right, and arrogant enough to state it...and spell check was not my friend on this (irreverent), to think so highly of your own opinion as to state its better than pastors or priests is a big sign of pride in your own mind....LOL satan had the same though..LOL again

[ReformationFan]

It’s not pride in my opinion. I’m just stating an objective fact: Protestantism held the same view of birth control as Roman Catholicism until the Anglican Lambeth Conference of 1930. This thread discusses it:

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/2613278/posts

If your clergymen were unaware of this historical fact they wouldn’t have informed you of this. But as someone once said, you’re entitled to your own opinions but not your own facts.

Also, I fail to see how it’s of Satan to not want innocent babies murdered and to have respect for fellow humans created in the image of God and to want their lives protected from conception until natural death. Sounds like Christ’s position to me whether you or I agree with it or not.

[ReformationFan]

P.S. Another link backing up the facts about the historical Protestant view of birth control:

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/2531431/posts

[goat granny]

Thanks for the links but just because you think they are important doesn’t mean I am interested. Or for that matter is anything else you have to say...sorry, but just boring.. pleasant dreams....

[workerbee]

Thanks for your story; I became well aware of the idiosyncracies of the body during my 5 pregnancies, lol.

You are mistaken to think in medical terms conception and fertilization are synonymous,

I don't. See #20 & 25.

You yourself refer to the "conception" of your grandchild. I presume you meant, technically, the fertilization process that created him.

[EternalVigilance]

The Equal Protection for Posterity Resolution

A Resolution affirming vital existing constitutional protections for the unalienable right to life of every innocent person, from the first moment of creation until natural death.

WHEREAS, The first stated principle of the United States, in its charter, the Declaration of Independence, is the assertion of the self-evident truth that all men are created equal, and that they are each endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights, beginning with the right to life, and that the first purpose of all government is to defend that supreme right; and

WHEREAS, The first stated purposes of We the People of the United States in our Constitution are “to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity”; and

WHEREAS, The United States Constitution, in the Fourteenth Amendment, imperatively requires that all persons within the jurisdictions of all the States be afforded the equal protection of the laws; and

WHEREAS, The United States Constitution, in the Fifth and the Fourteenth Amendments, explicitly forbids the taking of the life of any innocent person; and

WHEREAS, The practices of abortion and euthanasia violate every clause of the stated purposes of the United States Constitution, and its explicit provisions; and

WHEREAS, Modern science has demonstrated beyond any reasonable doubt that the individual human person’s physical existence begins at the moment of biological inception or creation; and

WHEREAS, All executive, legislative and judicial Officers in America, at every level and in every branch, have sworn before God to support the United States Constitution as required by Article VI of that document, and have therefore, because the Constitution explicitly requires it, sworn to protect the life of every innocent person;

THEREFORE, WE THE PEOPLE OF THE UNITED STATES HEREBY RESOLVE that the God-given, unalienable right to life of every innocent person, from biological inception or creation to natural death, be protected everywhere within every state, territory and jurisdiction of the United States of America; that every officer of the judicial, legislative and executive departments, at every level and in every branch, is required to use all lawful means to protect every innocent life within their jurisdictions; and that we will henceforth deem failure to carry out this supreme sworn duty to be cause for removal from public office via impeachment or recall, or by statutory or electoral means, notwithstanding any law passed by any legislative body within the United States, or the decision of any court, or the decree of any executive officer, at any level of governance, to the contrary.

http://www.equalprotectionforposterity.com/index.html