[SueRae]

Maybe we can have a discussion that won't get zotted. I didn't get to read the thread last night that got pulled (Hat tip to FightinJAG)

[ngat]

“These include income redistribution, encouraging favored industries, and discouraging unfavorable behavior.”

So, again. the Republican proposal is to control peoples behavior, but this time in a positive way, by tinkering with the tax code.

[SMARTY]

A first step HAS to be made, and I commend ANYONE who is realistic and objective enough to SAY SO ... and to provide a plan, even if it is a partially articulated or empbyonic plan requiring further debate and refinement!!

Also, and THIS is significant, Cain is NOT some kind of howling “O” demagogue who will walk into the WH with a cast in stone (AND secret) plan for the revision of the tax code....and then proceed to force it down the craw of taxpayers irrespective of ANY debate. We saw THAT movie and have the script in our back pocket.... ‘we have to pass it to see what’s in it’...ain’t gonna happen with Cain. Period.

Cain is OK with his plan, in my book.

[SMARTY]

A first step HAS to be made, and I commend ANYONE who is realistic and objective enough to SAY SO ... and to provide a plan, even if it is a partially articulated or empbyonic plan requiring further debate and refinement!!

Also, and THIS is significant, Cain is NOT some kind of howling “O” demagogue who will walk into the WH with a cast in stone (AND secret) plan for the revision of the tax code....and then proceed to force it down the craw of taxpayers irrespective of ANY debate. We saw THAT movie and have the script in our back pocket.... ‘we have to pass it to see what’s in it’...ain’t gonna happen with Cain. Period.

Cain is OK with his plan, in my book.

[ASA Vet]

Herman Cain

born December 13, 1945 in Memphis, TN (Meets the Jus Soli Requirement)

Parents were
Luther Cain Jr., born March 16, 1925 in TN, died March 29, 1982 in Atlanta, GA
Lenora Davis, born July 27, 1925 in GA, died August 20, 2005 in Atlanta, GA

Both parents were US Citizens at the time of his birth (Meets the Jus Sanguinis Requirement)

Herman Cain is a NATURAL BORN CITIZEN

Barry Soetoro aka Barack Hussein Obama ISN'T!

[PapaNew]

I like Herman Cain and I like the idea of a sales tax that is not a VAT replacing the income tax (less intrusive and malevolent). But until the 16th amendment is repealed, the sales tax will and ADDITIONAL NOT REPLACEMENT tax to the constitutionally-protected income tax. The 16th amendment must first be repealed before a sales tax is created.

In the meantime, go ahead and abolish the convoluted tax code and simply have a flat 9-10% income tax for individuals. I hate corporate tax, but maybe some kind of flat-rate temporary corporate tax as well.

[Watchdog85]

Herman needs to emphasize the hidden tax in goods and services. People are not getting that they will save money on goods and services by removing 22% hidden taxes and replacing with 9% sales tax at final point of sale.

Also since they already pay 22% plus their state sales tax now, they are saving money.

He should use more examples like “Do you want this car under the current plan or under mine” something like that to emphasize the savings.

He needs to repeat often that social security and savings plans will not bet taxed.

Empowerment zones need to be explained in more detail.

He also needs to stress that foreigners (illegal’s) and criminals will also be paying the sales tax.

I have sent an email to his website to put this link on there to help people understand.

http://999calculator.net/

[sodpoodle]

Retired for the night and missed the zotted thread.

Got up early this a.m. to check comments on the Live Thread.

What happened? It turned into a rabid religious rant!!!!

Some FReepers must have been drinking into the early hours.

[myself6]

I do not support having the following concurrently:

- state sales tax
- federal sales tax
- state income tax
- federal income tax

Honestly, I do not support having an income tax at all. Make the F’ing federal sales tax 18% and make income taxes illegal with a clause that any elected official who tries to implement one, EVER again, instantly forfeits their life and the lives of their family.

[SueRae]

Ari Fleischer had some good suggestions for Cain last night in the after debate session on CNN. He said Herman should break the 999 down into three speeches, outlining each of the 9’s in detail. I liked it...but when I hear a lot of words around math (ESPECIALLY math), I get lost. Maybe a chart presentation (shades of Perot...but I really like those)I need the visual.

[newzjunkey]

Those interested in much more detail, can get it from the official scoring report of 9-9-9. You'll want both documents:

999 scoring report (Acrobat PDF)

999 scoring tables (Acrobat PDF)

I notice some very good information there as I skimmed through.

In order to exempt food and medicine from the sales tax, you'd have to add 0.5% to the sales tax rate to make up the difference.

The 9-9-9 rates themselves assume a "refundable credit equal to the tax rate times the poverty level" as relief for low income earners.

In theory, at least, the rates could be as low as 7-7-7, if the poor got no offset.

The dynamic analysis says GDP would grow 15% above the 2008 baseline or by $2 trillion.

It would create 6 million new jobs and 10% higher wages too.

If that projected growth happened, the rates could actually drop a few percentage points and maintain 2008 revenue levels.

[sickoflibs]

FROM LINK :”By contrast, the three tax bases for Mr. Cain's 9-9-9 plan add up to about $33 trillion. But the plan exempts from any tax people below the poverty line. Using poverty tables, this exemption reduces each tax base by roughly $2.5 trillion. Thus, Mr. Cain's 9-9-9 tax base for his business tax is $9.5 trillion, for his income tax $7.7 trillion, and for his sales tax $8.3 trillion. And there you have it! Three federal taxes at 9% that would raise roughly $2.3 trillion and replace the current income tax, corporate tax, payroll tax (employer and employee), capital gains tax and estate tax.

The whole purpose of a flat tax, à la 9-9-9, is to lower marginal tax rates and simplify the tax code. With lower marginal tax rates (and boy will marginal tax rates be lower with the 9-9-9 plan), both the demand for and the supply of labor and capital will increase. Output will soar, as will jobs. Tax revenues will also increase enormously—not because tax rates have increased, but because marginal tax rates have decreased.

By making the tax codes a lot simpler, we'd allow individuals and businesses to spend a lot less on maintaining tax records; filing taxes; hiring lawyers, accountants and tax-deferral experts; and lobbying Congress. As I wrote on this page earlier this year (”The 30-Cent Tax Premium,” April 18), for every dollar of business and personal income taxes paid, some 30 cents in out-of-pocket expenses also were paid to comply with the tax code. Under 9-9-9, these expenses would plummet without a penny being lost to the U.S. Treasury. It's a win-win.”
Cain's Stimulating ‘9-9-9’ Tax Reform(direct link)

Worth reading.

I still like the 9-9-9 idea but I don't think Cain is doing a good job selling it. A key to any proposal like this is to make the case that it makes us MORE competitive in a world economy where trade is a reality, and therefore helps everyone here.

[MEGoody]

I really do like Cain, but I have concerns about his 9-9-9 plan. My biggest concern is that it introduces yet another form of tax on the federal level that Congress can keep pushing up and up and up.

The national sales tax may be 9% when implemented, but how is Cain going to guarantee that it will stay there? He can't, of course, and that's my concern.

[marty60]

“Still, a number of my fellow economists don’t like the retail sales component of the 9-9-9 plan. They argue that, once in place, the retail rate could be raised to the moon. They are correct, but what they miss is that any tax could be instituted in the future at a higher rate. If I could figure a way to stop future Congresses from ever raising taxes I’d do it every day of the week and twice on Sunday. Until then, let’s not make the perfect the enemy of the good.”

WOW he can’t figure out a way to stop Congress from raising taxes?

Some economist!

Try a Balanced Budget Amendment AND an amendment REQIRING a 2/3rds vote of BOTH Houses of Congress to raise ANY tax.

Laffer really liked Jerry Brown’s tax policy, while he was advising Clinton.
Hey Art, Stephen Moore now says the Sales tax portion needs to be dropped. Did he sober up?

[NC28203]

From the article:

"Thus, Mr. Cain's 9-9-9 tax base for his business tax is $9.5 trillion, for his income tax $7.7 trillion, and for his sales tax $8.3 trillion. And there you have it! Three federal taxes at 9% that would raise roughly $2.3 trillion and replace the current income tax, corporate tax, payroll tax (employer and employee), capital gains tax and estate tax."

It would appear that more than a third of the revenue from this plan would be derived from the corporate tax. Looking at the current Monthly Treasury reports, corporate income tax accounts for less than 10% of revenues under the current plan. If corporations are going to bear a much larger share of the tax burden, would we necessarily see savings in the prices of goods and services?

[Buckeye McFrog]

It may require some tweaks to get done, but all sane economists seem to agree Herman is on the right track with this.

[NoGrayZone]

Ping.

I tried the fancy ping, but it didn’t work for me!!

[justsaynomore]

Laffer – 9-9-9 not a joke
by admin Posted on October 18, 2011

Arthur Laffer documents his thoughts on Herman Cain’s 9-9-9 plan. The debate was increasing frustrating tonight due to Bachmann, Romney and Perry routinely providing false and misleading analogies on Cain’s plan. Here is the math:

Current tax code: 25% income tax + 9% sales tax = 34%

9-9-9: 9% income tax + 9% federal sales tax (only on goods you choose to buy new) + 9% state sales tax = 27%

Now, the argument will be made that the poor now must pay 9% income tax under this plan. At what point should people have skin in the game? When 47% of the country pays no federal income tax and yet receive benefits beyond what this country can afford, are we supposed to seek our own financial demise?

http://theconservativethinker.com/wp/?p=1702

[justsaynomore]

Pinging the Cain Train!

Perry loses cool in Vegas as Cain wins GOP debate 3400 to 999
http://www.redstate.com/gamecock/2011/10/18/garden-gate-attack-of/

Things get ugly in Vegas (Boortz)
http://www.boortz.com/weblogs/nealz-nuze/2011/oct/19/things-get-ugly-vegas/

Cain Maintains Positive Intensity as Recognition Grows
http://www.gallup.com/poll/150185/Cain-Maintains-Positive-Intensity-Recognition-Grows.aspx

Cain: Occupy Movement Should “Be Outside The White House” Not On Wall Street - MUST SEE!
http://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2011/10/18/cain_occupy_movement_should_be_outside_the_white_house_not_on_wall_street.html

What You Should Know About the 9-9-9 Plan
https://www.facebook.com/notes/neil-daniell/what-you-should-know-about-the-9-9-9-plan/10150422133536416

Cain comes under attack at Republican debate
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2794791/posts

Fair, Flat and Final (anti 999)
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2794921/posts

[ken21]

michelle bachmann’s on fox

lying again about 999 and cain.