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Provo councilman Steve Turley charged with felonies [LDS High Council Member]
Provo Herald Extra ^ | July 27, 2011 | Heidi Toth

Posted on 08/05/2011 3:48:47 PM PDT by Colofornian

PROVO -- After a year of complaints, doing their own investigation and raising Cain at Provo Municipal Council meetings, a group of citizens knew they were heard on Wednesday when the Utah County Attorney's Office charged Municipal Councilman Steve Turley with 10 second-degree felonies and his fellow elected officials asked him to resign.

The "exhaustive" official investigation from the Utah County Bureau of Investigations took into account complaints, Turley's activities on the Municipal Council and as a developer and landowner and a request from the city for an ethical investigation, although they only looked at possible criminal activity, not any ethical questions.

The evidence gathered supported seven counts of communications fraud, two counts of exploitation of a vulnerable adult and one count of a pattern of unlawful activity. This came a week after the group of 23 citizens again approached the city and asked for an investigation and the meeting itself devolved into mayhem.

Deputy County Attorney Mariane O'Bryant said she has been in discussions with Turley's attorney prior to filing charges. When reached by phone, Turley referred the Herald to his attorney Brett Tolman, who expressed disappointment and a little disbelief at the charges.

"I think the probable cause statement may be one of the thinnest ones I've seen for the number of charges being brought," he said.

Mayor John Curtis and the Municipal Council sent Turley a joint letter an hour after charges were filed asking for his resignation from the council.

"It is our belief that your ability to serve effectively as a member of the Municipal Council has been so compromised by these allegations that it would be in the best interest of you, your family and the city that you immediately resign your position as a member of the council," the letter read.

Accusations

Those that made it through the county attorney's screening process may not have been the charges expected. According to documents filed with 4th District Court in Provo, the investigator obtained evidence that Turley "engaged in a course of conduct to defraud others or obtain money, property or other items by means of false of fraudulent pretenses, representations, promises or material omissions," through which he received property with a value of more than $5,000. Some of these will sound familiar; others may not.

Turley's activities started raising eyebrows most publicly in 2009, when he approached the city about doing reclamation work in Slate Canyon. He told residents and the Municipal Council that he had no interest in profits. The construction company with which he was negotiating, however, bought more than $1 million in equipment because of Turley's representations that this would be a significant mining project, according to court documents. When Turley was challenged about the amount of gravel to be removed, he told the council it was about a third of the amount he'd told the construction company; he also admitted he could profit from developing the land.

Other charges dealt with a two-year court case about a million-dollar tract of land in Diamond Fork Canyon. According to the probable cause statements, Turley in June 2009 presented a copy of a check for $2.645 million to the attorney for Trudy Childs, who owns 2,500 acres in Diamond Fork Canyon; Turley represented that those funds were available to enforce a 90-day option he held to buy the property. The county investigator found that Turley did not have the actual check, and the owner of the funds did not intend to allow Turley to use the money. Turley sued Childs two years ago to enforce the contract; the lawsuit has been tied up in dueling paperwork ever since. Turley claimed that he gave childs a 90-day, $30,000 loan and she gave him an option to buy her property if she didn't pay him in 90 days. She didn't; he tried to exercise the option. Childs claimed that she only intended to give him an option on 80 acres of her property and that he falsified paperwork to get all of her land.

That's not the only lawsuit that mixes in with the charges. One of the counts against Turley alleges that in November 2007, he had an elderly person sign over property using a quitclaim deed; he would then deed another property in exchange for that. The transfer of property never happened, and Turley then took out a loan using the man's original property, which has since gone into foreclosure. This is likely Ted Taylor's property, the Carpenter Seed building on South State Street in Provo. Taylor sued Turley early last year; he claimed he didn't intend to sell Turley the land on which his building sat and he also never got the townhouse that was supposed to be built on the land west of the store.

In another case, Turley sued the person he's now being charged with victimizing. Between Aug. 1, 2007, and June 30, 2008, Turley, while doing business with someone who is elderly and also reportedly has physical and mental impairment, "unjustly or improperly used or managed the resources of the victim by purporting to have her sign over her life lease on her residence without any compensation, and without her understanding what she signed, or if she signed," according to the documents. This is likely the case dealing with Deanna Thorn, who owned a home and Brand X Burger in Springville. He still has a lawsuit pending against her.

In June 2008, Turley met with the business owner, presumably Thorn, and negotiated with her to re-open a local restaurant in Springville, then he leased the same property to someone else at about the same time, according to the documents.

Several counts dealt with his property development. According to documents, in December 2006, Turley had a potential homebuyer sign a purchasing agreement raising the offer price of a home Turley was building to $265,000, but promised that the final price would still be $172,000. Turley then allegedly used the new agreement, absent the lower final price, to get an extension on a loan from the bank, which the bank would not have provided with the complete information.

In January 2007, while building two homes, Turley allegedly ordered cabinets for accessory apartments in the homes knowing that city zoning did not allow for accessory apartments, but told the potential homebuyers they were acceptable, which allowed him to charge more for the homes. He sold four of these homes; all later had financial difficulty and two were going through foreclosure.

Finally, in September 2007, a person moved into a home Turley owned, and Turley said he was going to deed the house to him. The documents state that deed was never recorded and couldn't be because Turley didn't have clear title to the home. He then listed that home as an asset in a loan application.

Political implications and next moves

Turley cannot be removed from his position, so for now, his elected seat is his unless he decides to vacate it. However, if he chooses not to resign, Tuesday's meeting could be more divisive than the last one.

Neither Tolman nor Curtis knew what Turley's plans were for his council seat.

The joint letter, which all the remaining council members except Laura Cabanilla, who is on active duty in Kuwait, signed, states that they are not assuming Turley's guilt but feel that residents will not be able to have confidence in the integrity of their city government with the pending charges.

The letter also suggested Turley may be overly distracted from his work as an elected official while dealing with the court case.

The letter brought up the possibility of an ethical inquiry, as requested by citizens at the July 12 meeting, and Curtis reiterated to the Daily Herald that he would be launching an ethics investigation by early next week if Turley did not resign. The county's investigation did not address those concerns the citizens raised, and Curtis already has found a third party to conduct the investigation. If the investigation finds unethical behavior, Curtis makes a recommendation to the Council, and the other members then can vote to remove Turley, but only after the specific process is followed.

"We will do that as quickly as we can," Curtis said.

Diane Christensen, the spokeswoman for the citizens group, released a statement to the Herald renewing the call for an ethical investigation.

"We are also confident that Mayor John Curtis and the Municipal Council will take appropriate action, as it is untenable for Mr. Turley to continue in his position on the council with multiple felony charges filed against him," the statement read. "We expect that our formal conflict of interest complaint will now be able to move forward and that we will soon see a resolution that includes full accountability, for the sake of Provo city and for the sake of the victims named in the criminal charges, who are Provo citizens and Mr. Turley's own constituents."

That there were no charges related to Turley's council activites was noteworthy to Tolman, since those accusations are what started the landslide more than a year ago, he said.

"We think that's significant," he said.

Turley will have an initial appearance and arraignment and then the court case will begin, he said. The county attorney's office will be required to justify each of the charges brought against Turley, including at a preliminary hearing, and he is looking forward to hearing what evidence they have that would lead to these charges.

Turley was elected in 2003, re-elected in 2007 and is up for re-election this year; he is not running again. He is currently serving as a high council member in the Provo Bonneville Stake of the LDS Church.


TOPICS: Crime/Corruption; Government; US: Utah
KEYWORDS: citycouncil; mormon; provo; turley; whatishisparty
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From the article: After a year of complaints, doing their own investigation and raising Cain at Provo Municipal Council meetings, a group of citizens knew they were heard on Wednesday when the Utah County Attorney's Office charged Municipal Councilman Steve Turley with 10 second-degree felonies and his fellow elected officials asked him to resign. The "exhaustive" official investigation from the Utah County Bureau of Investigations took into account complaints, Turley's activities on the Municipal Council and as a developer and landowner and a request from the city for an ethical investigation, although they only looked at possible criminal activity, not any ethical questions.

Please note: There is also a Steve Turley who is a prof @ BYU. They are different Turleys.

From the article: Turley was elected in 2003, re-elected in 2007 and is up for re-election this year; he is not running again. He is currently serving as a high council member in the Provo Bonneville Stake of the LDS Church.

For the specific account provided direct from the Utah County Attorney, see: Utah County Attorney Press Release

For updated article, see: Provo asks former judge to conduct Turley ethics investigation

Also, the former Provo mayor has now lodged an ethics complaint against the current Provo mayor, John Curtis. (See Billings lodges complaint against Curtis for ethical concerns

Financial-political corruption in the most "Mormon" county (% of residents) in the country.

1 posted on 08/05/2011 3:48:56 PM PDT by Colofornian
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To: Colofornian

Years ago, I read that the IRS office with the largest number of auditors per capita was the one in Salt Lake City. I don’t know if it’s still the case.


2 posted on 08/05/2011 3:52:50 PM PDT by Steely Tom (Obama goes on long after the thrill of Obama is gone)
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To: All
If you should ask, why is it relevant to this article that this city council member is Lds?

First of all, the newspaper in Provo reported it. (Not me).

And I would wager, were I into gambling, that the Provo paper is owned & operated by plenty of Mormons.

Secondly, Turley is a high council member @ an Lds stake. "Falls" like this always "splatter" & splash more when the fall is further.

Thirdly, this is not a unique kind of scandal story among Lds in recent years.

Yes, affinity fraud occurs across the board.

In recent years, it's been heavily concentrated, religious-wise, in a sect that is only 1.7% of the population: The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, the Mormons.

If you only have time to click on one article link below...read this one: JOHN L. SMITH: Thieves in the temple: How 'affinity fraud' hurts LDS church members

Be sure to read the comments of FBI special agent Cameron Saxey (who is Lds)...the article mentions how the Utah jurisdictional Securities Fraud Task Force was working on 100+ cases...meaning that $1.4 billion total doesn't tell it all!

BTW...I went to absolutely no major effort or had to do any "days of pouring over" the internet to strain these to the surface. Just about all of them were delivered right into my e-mail lap...meaning I wonder what more I'd find if I really dug deeper!

* Tag archives @Utahsecuritiesfraud.com: LDS Church

* Feds arrest St. George business man, philanthropist for mail fraud
Source: Mormon-church owned KSL.com, June 11, 2011

* Former LDS leader charged in fraud against Ute football coach, others
Source: Salt Lake Tribune, June 8, 2011

* Suspected Mormon Con Artist Pleading Guilty to $78M Scam
Source: Streetsweeper.org, May 31, 2011

* Mormon Madoff?
Source: Financial Fraud Law.com, May 27, 2011

* A Fraud Played Out on Family and Friends
Source: New York Times, May 26, 2011

* St. George investor ordered to jail [ex-Lds bishop]
Source: MidUtahRadio.com, April 15, 2011

* Using trust to steal (Utah affinity fraud)
Source: Ogden (UT) Standard Examiner, Feb. 3, 2011

* Mormons Now Losing Billions to Affinity Fraud
Source: Religion Dispatches.org, Sept. 13, 2010

* JOHN L. SMITH: Thieves in the temple: How 'affinity fraud' hurts LDS church members
Source: Las Vegas Review-Journal, Sept. 12, 2010

* Local political gadfly arrested for exploiting elderly woman
Source: Provo Daily Herald, May 4, 2010

* Preying on the faithful: Though Mormons often victims, LDS church skips fraud-prevention event
Source: Salt Lake Tribune, May 2, 2010

* Kaneohe swindler is sentenced
Source: Honolulu Star-Bulletin, April 6, 2010

* Investors with troubled firm have Mormon ties
Source: Austin American Statesman, Jan. 16, 2010

* Man Who Defrauded Fellow Church Goer Pleads Guilty
Source: www.connect2utah.com (KUTV) Jan. 7, 2010

* Lindon Man Accused of Trying to Kill Witnesses to Alleged Scam
Source: MidUtahRadio.com, Nov. 19, 2009

* KSL 5 News investigates affinity fraud
Source: KSL.com Nov. 9, 2009

* Mormon victims are caught up in $50M scam to sell gold bullion
Salt Lake Tribune, Sept. 18, 2009

* LDS Church returned $200K in Southwick Tithing
Source: AP, Sept. 14, 2009

* Merriman's church donations may be tained [Momon Ponzi schemer's tithe monies ill-gotten?]
Source: Denver Post, April 24, 2009

* Man Who Defrauded Fellow Church Goer Pleads Guilty
Source: Fox News, April 8, 2009

* Calif. Man Charged with $40 million Ponzi scheme
Source: AP, March 20, 2009

3 posted on 08/05/2011 3:54:12 PM PDT by Colofornian (Tenses of polygamy: "As fLDS now are, LDS once were. As fLDS now are, LDS may become.")
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To: Colofornian
Financial-political corruption in the most "Mormon" county (% of residents) in the country.

That much boasted of mormon "discernment" seems to be a failure in the matter of "affinity fraud", doesn't it?

4 posted on 08/05/2011 4:02:15 PM PDT by greyfoxx39 (My God can't be bribed by money or good works or bound by manmade "covenants". Romney's can.)
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To: Colofornian

After a year of complaints, doing their own investigation and raising Cain at Provo Municipal Council meetings, a group of citizens knew they were heard on Wednesday when the Utah County Attorney’s Office charged Municipal Councilman Steve Turley with 10 second-degree felonies and his fellow elected officials asked him to resign.
_____________________________________________

In Utah it takes that long eh ???

The Ol Mormon Boys Club thingy going on there...

In my TN county we got rid of an offending Council/Commission member right off

We get ‘er done...


5 posted on 08/05/2011 4:03:23 PM PDT by Tennessee Nana
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To: greyfoxx39
That much boasted of mormon "discernment" seems to be a failure in the matter of "affinity fraud", doesn't it?

It's evident of fruit...sour fruit, that is...and yes, still anecdotal...that vulnerability to deception...gullibility...carries over from the spiritual realm into the financial realm.

This is what happens when you take LDS leaders @ face value @ what they say...and fail to check under the hood.

They become exposed as the worst of used-car salesmen.

Post #3 is a living "testimony" from Mormons...including many Mormon leaders...that far outweighs that "testimony" you'll hear from a rookie Mormon missionary interrupting your day @ your door.

6 posted on 08/05/2011 4:06:04 PM PDT by Colofornian (Tenses of polygamy: "As fLDS now are, LDS once were. As fLDS now are, LDS may become.")
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To: Colofornian

I thought all Mormons were honest hard-working people. This comes as quite a shock!!!


7 posted on 08/05/2011 4:09:50 PM PDT by SeaHawkFan
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To: Steely Tom; All
Years ago, I read that the IRS office with the largest number of auditors per capita was the one in Salt Lake City. I don’t know if it’s still the case.

Yes, the info below & links documents that. And I'd say that since it's now entered into the plural BILLIONS in just the last three years, that whatever went on up until 2001 was just the tip of the iceberg.

The dip in the economy has also exposed shady dealings even beyond Utah and well beyond Mormons.

Utah's White-Collar crime reputation: (The second note below shows this problem is endemic & specific to the Mormon church):
* ”Frustrated by the wave of fraud that by one estimate took $750 million out of Utahns' pocketbooks last year, regulators, law enforcement officials and attorneys are organizing a free 'Fraud College' next month in Utah County for the public to call attention to the problem and to try to combat it.” Source headline: Preying on the faithful: Though Mormons often victims, LDS Church skips fraud-prevention event
* As you indicated, this isn't new...Utah has long been host to the most per-capita fraud in America: Salt Lake City, with a mere 170,000 residents, is by far the country’s smallest city where the scam-fighting U.S. Securities & Exchange Commission has an office. It has been there since the early 1950s. Why? “There is a lot of fraud here per capita,” says local SEC boss Kenneth Israel. “There doesn’t seem to be any shortage of work for us.” [Source url: http://www.lds-mormon.com/6303056a.shtml ]
* Utah was #1 in mortgage fraud in America by 2001 when the FBI listed Utah as No. 1 in the country for the amount of mortgage fraud cases reported. [Source url: http://deseretnews.com/dn/view/0,1249,600151169,00.html]
This isn't a "criminal" stat, but even beyond mortgage fraud, Utah has been in the top five of real estate foreclosures...with a very high rate in Utah County (Provo).

8 posted on 08/05/2011 4:15:31 PM PDT by Colofornian (Tenses of polygamy: "As fLDS now are, LDS once were. As fLDS now are, LDS may become.")
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To: SeaHawkFan
I thought all Mormons were honest hard-working people. This comes as quite a shock!!!/Sarc

There fixed it for you. And they're so nice.....

9 posted on 08/05/2011 4:34:54 PM PDT by Utah Binger (Southern Utah where Freepers will meet again next summer. Especially Elsie!)
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To: Colofornian

Not surprised at all. There is so much corruption and white collar crime in Utah that it makes Chicago pale in comparison. Much of the crime is committed by LDS members against other LDS.


10 posted on 08/05/2011 4:42:53 PM PDT by reaganaut (Ex-Mormon, now Christian - "I once was lost, but now am found; was blind but now I see")
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To: Colofornian

Say what you will, Mormons make good neighbors. < /sarc>


11 posted on 08/05/2011 4:59:44 PM PDT by Gamecock (Here I raise mine Ebenezer)
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To: SeaHawkFan; greyfoxx39; Tennessee Nana; Utah Binger; reaganaut
I thought all Mormons were honest hard-working people. This comes as quite a shock!!!

Well, obviously many are.

The unfortunate thing is that they also think they can "defraud" God with a fancy good-works resume' that will convince God to give them godhood.

I mean, sure...just like many Mormons' work ethic, they're workin' awfully hard.

But somehow, they've forgotten what even their own supposed "good book" says: "He comprehendeth all things, and all things are before him, and all things are round about him..." (Lds Doctrine & Covenants 88:41) and: "God...has...all understanding; he comprehendeth all things..." (Book of Mormon, Alma 26:35)

There's no way ANYBODY is going to pull one over on God about our internal spiritual bankruptcies and relational defrauding of one another and myriad of sinful shortcomings that fail to glorify God.

We're all guilty. Our internal thoughts alone are enough to keep us away from an all-holy God forever; never mind the vain temple Mormon fantasy of becoming fellow "gods" who have all things subjected to us.

You see, hard work and religious sincerity doesn't matter. 'Cause some religious folk can be sincerely wrong.

The apostle Paul was very religious pre-conversion (when he was Saul). He was 100% sincere in those days as Saul: 9 “I too was convinced that I ought to do all that was possible to oppose the name of Jesus of Nazareth." (Acts 26:9)

And so, like the Mormons do of Christians, he slandered the Christian church. (Of course he also persecuted them).

He even tried to force Christians to blaspheme God (Acts 26:11). Frankly, I think Mormon missionaries who try to convert Christians into do-it-yourself godhood is a form of coerced blasphemy as well.

This Turley character frequented Lds stake council members as a member of the High Council. 177 years ago, at another Lds council meeting (this one of the First Presidency), Joseph Smith told all the "saints" they were to yield to Smith's commandment that:

And for this purpose I have commanded you to organize yourselves, even to print my words, the fulness of my scriptures, the revelations which I have given unto you, and which I shall, hereafter, from time to time give unto you-- (D&C 104:58)

The index of my Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints triple -"scriptures" indicates under "Printing" that with this commandment it was given to "saints to organize for printing of sacred literature." (Index, p. 279, 1990)

IOW, when Mormons tell you they don't speak negatively about other religions, they fail to mention this little "commandment" they were given by Smith in D&C 104:58 -- and how their church describes it as for grassroots "saints to organize for printing of sacred literature."

Then they also fail to mention how this "sacred literature" -- now translated into over 100 languages and spread all over the world -- describes Christian sects as apostates, as "corrupt" professing believers, as adherers of 100% false creeds [e.g. Joseph Smith History, vv. 18-20, Pearl of Great Price]

It's this "saints'" organization of this worldwide slander by at least their wallets that makes them culpable. If they claim, "No, it's not me. It's the church structure," then they are denying D&C 104:58 as a true prophesy of Joseph Smith and therefore label him a false prophet.

Like Saul-turned-Paul, Mormons are "sincere" when they slander us as "apostates" who deny God's power; when they claim our creeds are 100% putrid and fail to honor God.

The Good News is that Saul didn't remain Saul. The Lord called him to stop the slander and the persecution and coerced blasphemy attempts of Christians.

Mormons, God loves you. You, too, can stop the spiritual defrauding of God within your own heart. You, too can gain true Holy Spirit discernment to spot affinity fraudsters who operate among Lds leadership both financially and spiritually. You, too, can stop turning over 10% of your lifetime income -- much of it used to slander the worldwide church of Jesus Christ, who never failed in protecting His bride.

Joseph Smith claimed to be speaking for God in 1828 that: I will not suffer that they shall destroy my work; yea, I will show unto them that my wisdom is greater than the cunning of the devil." (Doctrine & Covenants 10:43)

Mormon, have you ever stopped right there and asked yourself that if God or Jesus Christ was sincere about that promise, that God/JC wouldn't have allowed the devil to destroy Jesus' bride, His church, the first time around -- 1500-1700 years ago?

If this is a worthy promise that God would make in 1828, then why would a similar promise made in Ephesians 3:21 and Matthew 16:18 also not be honored by God or Jesus Christ? Why would Jesus' prophesy of Matt. 16:18 fail? Why would the apostle Paul's prophesy of Eph. 3:21 fail?

It's time to stop the slander of Jesus' bride. Leave Joseph Smith, and come unto the Lamb whose blood from the cross covers our sins...including the sin of slander...and spiritual bankruptcy.

12 posted on 08/05/2011 5:00:22 PM PDT by Colofornian (Tenses of polygamy: "As fLDS now are, LDS once were. As fLDS now are, LDS may become.")
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To: Colofornian

NO!!!

Not in Happy VAlley!!!


13 posted on 08/05/2011 5:09:45 PM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going)
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To: Colofornian; All

A couple of lines will work for me. I get it!


14 posted on 08/05/2011 5:11:29 PM PDT by Utah Binger (Southern Utah where Freepers will meet again next summer. Especially Elsie!)
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To: Elsie; Colofornian

I’m getting tired; must be getting old but this incessant repeated development of the same idea is getting boring.

Please Colofornian get on with your life and let it be.

I know you have better things to do. What about how our country is failing under Obama. Now there is an idea.


15 posted on 08/05/2011 5:19:00 PM PDT by Utah Binger (Southern Utah where Freepers will meet again next summer. Especially Elsie!)
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To: Utah Binger; Elsie
Thanks for the encouragement.

Indeed, there are other lakes to fish in...(And don't think I don't...no truly good fisherman restricts himself to a single lake).

Still, Lds are at least "worthy" of one thing: Attention. And if they won't listen to the true Gospel of Jesus Christ, they need to hear the incessant repeated diagnosis that doesn't change...as it's only the Holy Spirit convicting them of their diagnosis that they'll grab onto the One beyond Joe Smith.

Keep the feedback coming! (I'm always open)

16 posted on 08/05/2011 5:27:07 PM PDT by Colofornian (Tenses of polygamy: "As fLDS now are, LDS once were. As fLDS now are, LDS may become.")
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To: Colofornian

Jim Robinson was here last week. A wonderful and honest man. Many Freepers were here as well. We discussed the state of our country and many other things. Nobody gave a rats ass about Mormonism as the big picture does not include that nor should it.

That is my point in my tiredness of the phony morgbots that you work so hard to straighten out. I appreciate your hard work but in reality nobody cares including me. They are not in the big picture of things. Never have been.


17 posted on 08/05/2011 5:42:43 PM PDT by Utah Binger (Southern Utah where Freepers will meet again next summer. Especially Elsie!)
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To: Colofornian
Actually I am thinking here, what's the big deal with all this theft, adultery, pedophilia, lying and polygamy these lds are just acting like their founder Joseph Smith did.
18 posted on 08/05/2011 6:07:23 PM PDT by svcw (democrats are liars, it's a given)
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To: Utah Binger
Jim Robinson was here last week. A wonderful and honest man. Many Freepers were here as well. We discussed the state of our country and many other things. Nobody gave a rats ass about Mormonism as the big picture does not include that nor should it.

(Well, that would be true...at least up until -- or if -- Romney got the nod...then the MSM itself will open the floodgates in caring more than a rat's ass about Mormonism)

In that sense, I'm just being consistent.

That is my point in my tiredness of the phony morgbots that you work so hard to straighten out.

(Well, I'm sure any missionaries to the Pharisees didn't have an overwhelming harvest...but that doesn't mean it was ZERO)

I appreciate your hard work but in reality nobody cares including me. They are not in the big picture of things. Never have been.

Politically, yes.
Culturally/socially, yes.
Religiously, yes.

Yet, I have this "testimony" that the "tribe" of ex-Mormons will be represented as part of the "big picture" of heaven. And I can't imagine a grander "big portrait" than heaven...and I say that knowing how you see grand portraits every day...ranging from what artwork has been done in your region to the living majestic realities the Lord has given you in your neighborhood.

Appreciate your comments.

19 posted on 08/05/2011 6:09:50 PM PDT by Colofornian (Tenses of polygamy: "As fLDS now are, LDS once were. As fLDS now are, LDS may become.")
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To: Utah Binger
What about how our country is failing under Obama. Now there is an idea.

UB, if you've ever seen a whirlpool sucking it down to unknown depths, you'd realize trying to stem such whirlpools with long sticks in our hands seems a little out of our hands.

Yet I commend the zeal of all who act for our Lord and Free Republic principles in the public square. All is not lost. But I can't say for sure that hope applies to our economy.

20 posted on 08/05/2011 6:13:44 PM PDT by Colofornian (Tenses of polygamy: "As fLDS now are, LDS once were. As fLDS now are, LDS may become.")
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