Posted on 11/07/2010 8:48:27 AM PST by sukhoi-30mki
Russia keen to reopen talks on Su-33 fighter
Minnie Chan
Updated on Nov 05, 2010
Moscow is wooing Beijing to resume negotiations on the purchase of Su-33 fighters for future Chinese aircraft carriers after talks collapsed last year, a Macau-based military researcher with strong PLA connections says. Russia is keen to reopen the Su-33 production line after a 10-year hiatus but realises time could be running out after China successfully tested an indigenous carrier-capable fighter, the J-15, which many say is a copy of the Su-33, Macau International Military Association president Antony Wong Dong said, citing a mainland military insider.
A Russian military website said on Wednesday that Beijing was returning to the negotiating table with JSC Sukhoi, Russia's major aircraft producer, about a deal for Su-33 fighters capable of operating from China's first aircraft carrier.
Earlier reports said Russia had planned to sell China up to 50 Su-33 Flanker-D fighters.
"However, my military connection told me that China's indigenous J-15 successfully completed its first test flight on August 31 last year, which means China doesn't need to rely on the Su-33," Wong said.
Research and development of the J-15 formally began in 2006, after Beijing revealed it was planning to develop an aircraft carrier battle group.
"However, so far we don't know whether it is using the Chinese-made FWS-10A engine, or Russian-made turbo engines," Wong said. "It is an open secret that China's technology in aircraft engine development still does not compete with Russia's, and Russia threatened not to sell its engines to China early this year."
Russia also claims that China's J-series fighters - from the J-10 to the J-15 - are just inferior copies of Russian originals.
In July, Colonel Igor Korotchenko, a member of the Russian Defence Ministry's Public Council, cast doubt on the J-15's capabilities.
"The Chinese J-15 clone is unlikely to achieve the same performance characteristics as the Russian Su-33 carrier-based fighter, and I do not rule out the possibility that China could return to negotiations with Russia on the purchase of a substantial batch of Su-33s," Russian media quoted Korotchenko as saying.
Earlier reports said the deal to supply Su-33s collapsed due to China's request for an initial delivery of two aircraft for a "trial". China instead obtained an Su-33 prototype, the T-10K, from Ukraine for J-15 research. Wong said this week's Russian report had just reiterated Korotchenko's prediction in July, and told Beijing that Moscow's negotiating door was still open.
A Shanghai-based retired People's Liberation Army senior colonel familiar with Beijing's aircraft carrier project confirmed that the engine of the J-15 was still inferior to the Russian-made turbo engine. "The aircraft engine is the heart of a fighter jet, with Russia spending 20 years to develop its Su-33 engine," he said. "Buying Su-33s from Russia is possible, but not the first choice for Beijing because the timetable is quite tight."
Ni Lexiong , another Shanghai-based military expert, also said that aircraft engine technology had been China's fatal weakness.
"Our technology is still inferior and unstable just because our leadership spent only 600,000 yuan (HK$696,000) a year on engine research and development before 1990," he said. "But as aircraft play the key role on a carrier, and the engine is the heart of any plane, I think buying stable Su-33s is still another choice for us."
China plans to launch its first indigenous 48,000-tonne aircraft carrier, based on Russian models, in 2012, and to build up its first aircraft carrier battle group before 2015.
Which is odd, considering that U.S. engine design methodology stems from the seminal work of Chung Hua-Wu who was a Chinese expatriate.
He went back to China in the 1950's, like Tsien, and Mao never leveraged what he knew and did.
Now they're making up time by industrial espionage, but it isn't like the people they have can't do it.
Only a matter of time, they'll pass the Russians; they have a 10:1 people advantage, and of course trillions of dollars courtesy of the Free Trade idiots in this country.
Don't know why they bother with Russian jets, except maybe as a political stunt, or historical Communist "solidarity"...except the Russians aren't Communist anymore, and they can't stand the Chinese.
Their domestic turbofan engines are only just beginning to be equipped on their land based fighters. For Navy carrier fighter jets, the engines will have to be significantly more robust than land based fighters.
So their own engines aren’t as good as the Russian ones yet.
Distortion tolerance and corrosion resistance are well documented in the open literature. They'll get there.
It's a matter of time, like I said; eventually they'll catch up to the Russians and the U.S., as long as they prioritize the technology.
Take a look at the employees of the average U.S. engineering company. You'll see lots of their countrymen, and if you think they're all true blue loyal 'murricans, I have a lovely palace in downtown Beijing to sell you.
That's another thing. American companies are going to have to knock off this L-1 and H-1B wage-slave crap and start encouraging more American students to enter the engineering and science professions.
There should be zero -- zero -- native-born or overseas Chinese in any American defense-related industry, and that especially includes IT and IS.
Indians are one thing; the Chinese have proved that having ethnic Chinese in your workforce is a guarantee that PLA intelligence officers are going to come calling -- and a damn good bet that the ethnic-Chinese targets are not going to report the contacts. Wen Ho Lee didn't.
One morning my wife complained that someone had parked a car in our driveway, and it was in Park, couldnt be moved.
So I checked the registration. Rental car. Noticed on the right seat an interesting couple of pieces of paper: on it were the addresses of many engineers / midlevel managers in Santa Clara valley companies.
Also on it were contact names for the "Reversal Engineering Institute" with an address in some unpronounceable city in China. And similar places.
Some sort of industrial spy had parked in my driveway. But I didn't know where he was, so I walked in to call the tow truck.
Just then my wife yelled at me, and I came out to see the guy getting into the car after having walked over from my new neighbor's duplex, where he was visiting them (I had only checked with the front people, who were not Chinese).
I wasn't very friendly. But he just ignored us, got in his car and backed out.
Tall well built guy, gave me a look of so-what, he didn't give a crap.
Here on a mission, he was just making the rounds.
But just remember, we need immigrants, and we are a nation of immigrants. Repeat that over and over again until the alien armies show up smirking....and no resistance is allowed.
The Russians and the Chinese have tens of thousands of engineers in American companies, some with security clearances. They work on all of our advanced technologies.
I know a rabid Islamic extremist with a security clearance working with our nuclear triggers. I reported it, no one cared.
Yup. You say anything, yer a racist. They fire you, not him.
ping
How can you say that? The wingtip missile pylons are completely different.
That comment makes me laugh. It depends on what part of the country you are talking about. If you are in Southern California, then, possibly, yes. But if you are talking about most the other 49 states (such as Virginia, Georgia, etc., or even rural parts of California or New York), then I would disagree. The pendulum of political correctness have swung back the other way (the original and traditional political correctness of minorities having to be careful WHAT THEY THEMSELVES SAY). For a minority to bring up racism, people (white folks) feel uncomfortable that a minority would resort to such measures as a method of accusation or defense.
The political atmosphere of today isn't as stacked against you as you think. Maybe its not stacked in your favor as it once was, e.g. the 1950's and prior, but it certainly isn't as stacked against white Americans as you presume it to be.
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It’s not only a question of “political atmosphere” in the culture at large — the Human Resources and General Counsel drones in nearly any company are politically correct apparatchiks of the Commissar culture.
You can be right about larger trends but wrong about the micro-trend within any particular company. Anyone who wants to stall or end a career, just run afoul of any PC Commissar in the counsel’s office or HR, etc.
Yes, I agree with you. However, while federal reach is pervasive throughout American society, its influence depends on where you are at.
An HR Rep will have a different level of influence, say for example, in an upscale Manhattan department store vs an aerospace company in Witchita, Kansas. That's because people, including HR employees, are influenced by the sentiment that surrounds them. A situation not unlike referees being influenced by the home team.
And today's PC environemt (since about the 1960's) is nothing more than a PC environment that cuts both ways. Ever hear of Jack Johnson? He was a black heavy weight boxing champion between 1908-1915. He often moved about in public in the company of white women. He was hated for it. Even many fellow blacks discouraged him from this behavior. His behavior, for a lack of a better term, was POLITICALLY INCORRECT.
Just to give you one of many examples of how PC can affect minorities, a person of color has to worry about not coming across unpatriotic. A white American can speak well of Europe and their European heritage and even speak of it in glowing terms without coming across as they are betting against America. Anyone of any other race cannot do that about their ancenstrial country. Do you think an Arab American can promote his country and culture in America the way an Irishman can? Of course not. Even though both are sending the same message, i.e., proud of their heritage, the Arab American's message will be received with greater hostility, even if that hostility isn't open hostility. Whereas with Irish events, people will pull up a bar stool for a second round of brew.
There's no doubt, PC is something that can cut deep, the only difference is, in today's PC environment, its a two edge sword.
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