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To: Oceander
equality of spirit, of freedom to do, and most definitely not equality of material conditions or equality of result, so the fact that there are still rich people and poor people in this country does not demean either that phrase or this country one iota.

I don't have any quarrel with rich people. I'm not arguing for equal outcomes. Where did I say that? It's obvious, however, that slavery was a complete violation of "freedom to do." And I'm not arguing against our rights. I'm simply pointing out that history shows quite clearly those rights were not self-evident.

13 posted on 07/04/2010 7:24:39 AM PDT by Huck (Q: How can you tell a party is in the minority? A: They're complaining about the deficit.)
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To: Huck
I'm simply pointing out that history shows quite clearly those rights were not self-evident.

Actually, you're not even doing that - you haven't even accomplished your stated point. The whole basis for race-based slavery was that the enslaved weren't "men" in the same way that the enslavers were - an attitude that has deep, deep historical roots (going as far back as the ancient Greeks, including those of Athens). Since, by the hypothesis of the day, the enslaved weren't "men," then it would necessarily follow from that hypothesis that those rights did not apply to the enslaved, no matter how self-evidently they applied to the enslavers.

It was, and is, that secondary hypothesis concerning the status of the once-enslaved as "men" that was in error, not the self-evidentness of the rights mentioned in the Declaration of Independence.

As for the rest of it - I can start from stated assumptions and draw the conclusions they are supposed to imply, which is why I am disputing your premises, stated and unstated, rather than playing the fools' game of granting your assumtions and premises and trying to argue on a biased field. That is a classic Alinsky tactic.

Perhaps you ought to take up golf instead?


38 posted on 07/04/2010 8:05:28 AM PDT by Oceander (The Price of Freedom is Eternal Vigilance -- Thos. Jefferson)
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