Posted on 04/24/2010 9:18:10 AM PDT by Mr Rogers
Thanks for posting the Act. And for clarification, the children to which the Act refers would be children born before the father became naturalized since any children born after would be NBC’s.
It gets tiring pointing out the obvious, doesn’t it???
No. The statute of limitations (probably 2-7 years, depending on federal & state law at the time) would have expired years ago.
Aren’t the stats something like 100 in 5000 for cert?
You're right on. As Edwards Pierrepont wrote (it would have been in 1875 or 76), Young Steinkauler is a native-born American citizen. There is no law of the United States under which his father or any other person can deprive him of his birthright. He can return to America at the age of twenty-one, and in due time, if the people elect, he can become President of the United States
. I'm quite sure the Court would agree today, if they ever took a case.
One doesn't remove a President from office lightly. To override the decision by the people as accepted by Congress would require an "open/shut" case - and I don't see this as "open/shut".
The Supreme Court would not remove him even if they had an open/shut case. The Constitution requires them to leave the job of removal up to Congress.
I don't know if quite that many, although it may be. But the number is certainly north of 1K.
Yep. This is lost on so many. Most lay people don't understand that before a court will har a case, the plaintiff must demonstrate to the court that the remedy they are asking for (presuming that they prevail at trial), is actually something the court can provide.
No court can remove a sitting president, even if that president has been installed under fraudulent circumstances. This is why this case will never be heard for this term of Obama's presidency.
But, the court can provide a remedy for questions of ballot access for federal elections. Should Obama be precluded from a state ballot, then there is certainly a remedy the Court can apply, and is one of the reasons the case would be heard.
There is one other point of confusion for the opposition.
Many still do not understand that NOT all native born are natural born citizens. However, ALL natural born citizens are native born. The Supreme Court gave a very good background about Steinkauler because they described him as native born in the opinion for the reason not to confuse that he was ONLY a native born but also a natural born citizen.
No problemo.
hahaha - I almost said I should exclude Texas in this since they are very conservative on what they teach the kids. I’m sure there are schools that still adhere to these principals, I just have not seen it in my school system. My last child is now in 9th grade. One is in college and he loves bringing up alternate views to that of the teachers. He gets in some heated discussions and in some instances even gets the teachers and kids to see his point.
I’m very proud of him for speaking his mind.
No. Although my personal preference is La Quinta. And, as you may be aware, La Quinta is Spanish for "next to Denny's".
Standard birther canard. You can't give up your native born citizenship prior to attaining the age of majority. Nor can your parents give it up on your behalf.
They knew that a child not raised in this society would not have the reverence and respect for the history of the country.
I rather doubt the founders were that stupid. Do you suppose Marie Elg was not patriotic or something?
Of course, we know Obama isn't patriotic. But it isn't because he was raised by foreigners in foreign lands. He's a natural born red diaper baby. His communist education was at the hands of natural born American communists — Gramps and Gramps's friend Frank Marshall Davis and later Billy Ayers and who knows who else. We have to rely on voters, not founders, to keep such as Obama out of the Oval Office.
So you think that one case that makes up its own term but still supports the use of Vattel should overturn a preponderance of Supreme Court cases that state that the Vattel definition was meant by the founders?
This is what I posted to Mr. Rogers a day or two ago:
http://www.thepostemail.com/2009/10/18/4-supreme-court-cases-define-natural-born-citizen/
Here is more information that those words that do not change hundreds of years of precedence.
http://federalistblog.us/2008/11/natural-born_citizen_defined.html
Hopefully we have enough strict constructionists and non revisionists on the Supreme Court who understand that the people don’t want them to re-write the law, just interpret it.
As a matter of fact, there is dictum here in which this Court approves earlier dictum in Steinkauler that a person who becomes a citizen by right of birth in the US is eligible to run for president (Natural Born) even though his father was not a citizen.
Parental citizenship has ceased to be an issue because of the 14th Amedmdent.
And in fact, as I have pointed out, under current law in many of the Euro countries, where a grandfather who immigrates to the US and has a son born in the US who in turn has his own son born in the US; both the first generation son as well as the second generation grandson are both citizens of the Grandfather's country of birth (as well as "natural born" citizens of the US), even though they may not be aware of the fact.
None of this has been of great concern with respect to the Obama situation--at this point, everyone in the knowledgeable political establishment, as well as those of us who have studied the issue here know that Obama was born in the Coast Provincial General Hospital, in Mombasa, in what is now modern Kenya.
You have a right to believe anything you choose. But there is no proof of this alleged adoption, and according to U.S. Law, a child cannot renounce his U.S. Citiizenship -- and we are talking of a child who lived in Indonesia from approximately age 6 though 10 -- hardly an age where a child can be held responsible for such an important decision.
You are referring to the Steinkauler case in which, like Elg, a child of a naturalized citizen father was removed to the home country of the parent.
The ambiguous usage of the term “native citizen” in Elg and Steinkauler does not support a dilution what we now increasingly understand to be an unambiguous Vattel definition used by the founders of “indignes” as “natural born citizen” meaning parents are citizens and born on national soil. All NBC’s are natives, but not all natives are NBC.
Elg and Steinkauler both had US citizen fathers, so there is no comparison to Obama. Under US law in effect when they were born their mothers were US citizens by marriage so both parents of Elg and Steinkauler were US citizens, unlike Obama.
Elg and Steinkauler were both born on US soil which is still in dispute due for Obama due to failure of Obama to release his original vital records and any amendments that might have been made to his original HI vital records.
One of the foremost authorities on semantic originalism Lawrence Solum, published a paper a few years ago that dealt with the semantic intent of "natural-born". It's a lengthy and somewhat heady piece, as it's written by an academic for the Michigan Law Review. But, in the article (titled ORIGINALISM AND THE NATURAL BORN CITIZEN CLAUSE and which may be found at papers.ssrn.com), Solum posits that a natural-born citizen is any citizen born on American soil to at least one citizen-parent.
Now, if we have Solum, who is extremely well-regarded as an authority on original intent and semantic originalism (see his own legal theory blog), positing this meaning of "natural-born" by characterizing it as "beyond dispute", how do you think the originalists on the Court are going to hold?
I have seen plenty of blog postings from a myriad of pseudo-constitutional scholars or other lawyers of absolutely no note or standing claiming what is so frequently and fervently claimed here - that natural-born means born on US soil to two citizen-parents. But, I have never seen such a theory advanced in any American law journal - to include conservative journals or legal advocacy groups.
Antonin Scalia, Clearance Thomas, Roberts and Alito are all academics - conservative academics, but academics nonetheless; Cut from the same exact cloth as Solum. You can bet a year's salary that the four conservative justices mirror Solum on this particular matter of law.
So that is your real opposition, that some people believe the Supreme Court will reach down and find 0bama unqualified. I apologize. I agree that the court won’t just step in. I totally agree with you. It will take a state to decide this first and to deny 0bama access to the states voters. I don’t even think a small state like AZ will be enough. These birth place questions won’t do it either. Someone has to challenge him to prove he is a Natural Born Citizen in Florida or OH, for 0bama to notice.
0bama will ignore AZ he might even figure on losing TX anyway but he carried FL last time, he wouldn’t carry FL now, and since both FL houses are republican and will probably become even more republican after this next election, we should have a chance to get Natural Born Citizen through the state legislature.
This principle was clearly stated by Attorney General Edwards Pierrepont in his letter of advice to the Secretary of State Hamilton Fish, in Steinkauler's Case, 15 Op.Atty.Gen. 15. The facts were these: one Steinkauler, a Prussian subject by birth, emigrated to the United States in 1848, was naturalized in 1854, and in the following year had a son who was born in St. Louis.
Steinkauler's father was a naturalized citizen at the time of his birth, just like Ms Elg's parents were. Both were native born (modern usage) and natural born.
BHO Jr's father was not a citizen. So even if he was native born, he was not natural born.
At some point the meanings of "native born" and "natural born" diverged. Prior to that they were pretty much synonomous. Even in Vattel's "Law of Nations" and many later instances, they are considered the same. (Vattel uses "Les Naturels ou Indigenes" to describe those born in a county of parents who are its citizens".
But they no longer are the same, but it's "native born" that has changed. Native born means "born in the country", and thus a citizen by the 14th amendment. Natural born means what it always has.
Nice try, but a bit too much of a parroting of Where native and natural coincide especially Part Two
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