Posted on 11/08/2009 5:00:51 PM PST by Freedom2specul8
And yes the do random checks. Its bullshit to the highest order. They enforce every other state law on the base but not the rights. I guess if I don't like it I can find another job, but I am doing some good stuff for our green suiters so I put up with their bullshit.
GMTA
Yes, many.
If you haven't then you wouldn't really understand the reason why everyone is not allowed to pack heat.
Straw man argument. Nobody is arguing for that. We are arguing that the killer was able to shoot 40+ victims in 3+ minutes because he knew they were all unarmed.
If an NCO or officer in that room had a CCW pistol, the shooting might have been over before 40+ helpless sheep were shot down.
I remember right afte 911 our base had gate guards the next day, carrying M-16s. I heard they didn't have ammo so I asked one one day and he admitted, they weren't "trusted with ammo". What a damn sick joke. I feel sorry for our soldiers, but they need to wake up, like the rest of us. Stay out of places where you are vulnerable.
And the notion of 10,000s of 21 yr olds (the legal age to carry a firearm in this state) running around armed, sober, drunk, chasing women (and men), coming back after striking out isn’t scary in Hometown, USA? I don’t see any difference. At least my son has had training in the proper use of a weapon. On the other hand, I know a bunch of gun-toting civilian idiots who are a danger to everyone in 3 counties.
Our military bases are not "soft targets" and we don't have waves of screaming ninjas attacking our bases and killing folks every day. Indeed, if you and your friends try it on once (I don't mean you personally RO), we will visit your friends and relatives back home and you won't like the outcome.
So far, this was a one off incident by an American on the inside. I am not taking it lightly. But the gun thing I raised is a real issue. I have seen some really ticked off E-8's back from a good night on liberty, who I would not trust with a firearm, ever, and they have done tours of duty in places and situations that would make your hair - yes yours RO - stand on end if I could tell you about them (I would have to shoot you afterwords, however).
And BTW any true warrior is sick at what is happening to our men on the ground in Afghanistan. Idiotic mission, stupid ROE's, obvious lack of coordinated air support or ground fire support when they get into trouble, using marines to try to fight the WOD's etc.. I have no problem in a real tactical situation with creating complete and utter havoc using as much lead and HE as you can lay your hands on.
But from what we know so far, this was one isolated American nut case, and not an external attack on a "soft target."
I don’t think you can read or comprehend well. The poster said he never had a NEED for a firearm on a base. I said times are changing. Apparently there is now a NEED for a firearm on a base. Or at least the permission to carry your own.
That's at least three incidents.
This is unacceptable...and everyone needs to speak out against it. I have yet to see anyone say that mp's all over the place would NOT help prevent this from happening again.
or at the least, armed sober on duty mp’s everywhere, especially at special events. Make it so the enemy WON’T do this.
With all due respect, I have no idea what RO is actually arguing for. My guards were armed, but they were also closely supervised and did not stand post for 6 hours in a boring place all by their lonesome. But they were on the waterfront.
Where do you allow CCW on a base? Everywhere, or do you exclude the EM club, the CPO club, the bowling alley, the PX? What about base family housing?
If you allow indiscriminate access to firearms on base you are going to get weapons injury and death rates similar to the civilian population of similar socioeconomic mix, instead of the incredibly low rate that exists on base today, even including the statistically insignificant result of this.
Anyone, with a bit of planning can get 3 minutes uninterrupted in a killing pen. On a base armed response times start to kick in around that point so you won't get much more.
The point is that on state-side military bases this is a once in a decade incident. If its repeat is a serious concern, then different steps need to be taken.
Am I angry at what happened? Of course. Should appropriate action be taken? Yes, if warranted. But too much experience indicates the need to think this through carefully rather than turn military bases into an armed free-for-all.
:et's station a Bradley outside each recruiting center. Someone attacks, we just start shooting away. Killing civilians is just so much fun - right up to the point that they vote democratic and they stop paying for your toys.
Get real. Junior enlisted are not LEO's. They have different training and different experience and different pressures. Moreover, a lot of us are not liking SWAT team operations either.
When seconds count, police are only minutes away.
Numbers man, numbers. In how many years? And in those years, how many similar civilian incidents per thousand folks x how many thousand folks in the military happened. Orders of magnitude above 3. In fact we had more incidents in the last week than three.
I am not trying to belittle the seriousness of this, but it does need to be kept in perspective. If Jihadist armies start crossing the Rio Grande and attacking Ft. Hood in organized units, I am all for using all force to kill and capture them, and then go pay them a B52 raid back home. But that is not exactly what happened here.
You're absolutely correct. Unfortunately, your suggestion is far too sensible to be considered in today's climate of PC insanity... /g
There seems to be in these discussions an attitude of "all or nothing" assumption on both sides. Some seem determined to frame the issue as either to arm nearly all our military on base, or, in the case of far too many former military, a dogged insistence on doing it the way it was done when they served, i.e. keeping the weapons locked up. Both sides are overlooking the obvious solution.
There is no need for everyone to carry, but it is entirely feasible for each base commander to devise and implement an appropriate level of armed guards and patrols who will be able to provide protection at obvious tactical locations and also cover gatherings of personnel such as the one attacked at Fort Hood. This is precisely what the Marine bases here in NC are doing.
Now there have been some in this thread who have pointed out, as some always will, that there is no way to provide absolute protection (a determined enemy will find a way). True enough, but that truism in no way justifies doing nothing and leaving our defenses open. The fact is that there are a variety of incremental measures which can significantly improve the odds.
There is no rational reason that some armed guards could not have been posted at the facility which was attacked, or at similar venues. The only thing preventing base commanders from taking steps to significantly harden security on their bases is flawed institutional doctrine and a slavish devotion to a suicidal politically correct mindset.
You mean like all the times finance companies REPO a car for nonpayment of the loan. Some heat would be real nice.
So you'd rather someone attacks and we just stand around and take it?
No thanks.
Are we to roll over and let those who would do us harm walk all over us? Whatever happened to the idea of peace through superior firepower?
But from what we know so far, this was one isolated American nut case, and not an external attack on a "soft target."
One isolated incident? Wow!
I'll give it to you that this was not an external attack.... it was worse; an attack from within. That said, this isn't a once in a lifetime experience. Terrorists have plotted to attack Quantico earlier this year and attempted to attack Fort Dix, Lakehurst Naval Air Station, the Dover (Delaware) Air Force Base, the Army-Navy football game in Philadelphia and military ships docked in the Philadelphia harbour in '07.
http://www.monstersandcritics.com/news/usa/news/article_1301886.php/US_foils_alleged_plot_to_attack_US_military_base__1st_Update_
And further, I don't think you understand the difference between hard and soft targets. ID checkpoint at a business in town, CCTV = hard target. Casually scanning IDs on a base with 35000+ UNARMED personnel = soft target. No, we are not going to have waves of screaming ninjas flowing onto base. But, one or two determined terrorists with firearms could reak havoc in such a "target rich" environment. Further, you continuously ignore the need for personal responsibility. You are the ultimate Nanny Stater. You cannot legally carry a firearm while intoxicated ON BASE OR OFF.
I have seen some really ticked off E-8's back from a good night on liberty, who I would not trust with a firearm, ever, and they have done tours of duty in places and situations that would make your hair - yes yours RO - stand on end if I could tell you about them (I would have to shoot you afterwords, however).
One person's incompetence would be/is dealt with. This is not a reason to jeopradize the lives of countless others, because some E-8 might get drunk. That E-8 could very easily live off base and have a firearm. The only thing this does is ensure honorably serving sober personnel won't have access to a firearm when they need it.
Military folks are good at getting DUIs.... how about we ban cars on base?
Military folks are good at wrecking motorcycles (the USMC loses about a dozen a year to this)... maybe we should ban motorcycles?
Some folks drink themselves to death.... ban alcohol?
(Btw watch some of the documentaries on the military channel about Al-Fajr before you talk about hair standing.) They are my (and my Marines) stories too... not sea stories from someone else.
PS.... I have a hard time believing that someone who views armed servicemembers as "very very scary" would shoot me after telling a sea story.
You should, It’s ludicrous that Military personal are not allowed the right of self defense.
Part of my point was on gun-free zones in general and how stupid they are, and that if you are going to take away person’s means of self defense, you had better dam well provide a substitute.
Can you tell me what an appropriate level would be and what the tactical locations might consist in? A couple of jeeps with M50's circling the o-club for the Marine Corps Birthday celebration would be just right. One incident and we could decapitate a battalion. PS, Officers have been known to have one too many and engage in ungentlemanly behavior as well, I blush to admit.
PPS. There is a slight difference between stateside on a base and deployment to Afghanistan, though I hesitate to point it out to the tactical geniuses on this thread. Stateside we get 3 relatively "minor" incidents (again, desperately seeking to keep everything in perspective) in five years. In Afghanistan, our soldiers are in actual combat under potential attack 24/7.
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