Posted on 07/13/2009 9:21:56 AM PDT by Daffynition
Prosecutors in Germany have formally charged alleged Nazi war criminal John Demjanjuk with 27,900 counts of being an accessory to murder in World War II.
The prosecutors' office in Munich said the charges had been filed on Monday.
There was no immediate word on when the trial of the 89-year-old retired car worker, who was deported from the United States in May, might begin.
Mr Demjanjuk has denied accusations that he was a guard at the Sobibor death camp and helped murder Jews.
He says he was captured by Germans in his native Ukraine while fighting for the Red Army and kept as a prisoner of war.
Deportation
The formal filing of charges on Monday came 10 days after medical experts at Munich's Stadelheim prison declared that Mr Demjanjuk was fit to stand trial, provided that his questioning in court was limited to two 90-minute sessions per day.
Mr Demjanjuk's family have said he is too frail to stand trial because he suffers from kidney disease, cancer and arthritis. In May, he was admitted to hospital for three days after developing gout.
The BBC's Steve Rosenberg in Berlin says it is unclear when the trial will begin, but it could be as early as this autumn.
Efraim Zuroff, the top Nazi-hunter at the Simon Wiesenthal Centre, which considers Mr Demjanjuk the world's most-wanted suspected Nazi war criminal, welcomed the move by German prosecutors.
"This is obviously an important step forward," he told the Associated Press. "We hope that the trial itself will be expedited so that justice will be achieved and he can be given the appropriate punishment."
"The effort to bring Demjanjuk to justice sends a very powerful message that the passage of time in no way diminishes the guilt of the perpetrator."
[snip]
(Excerpt) Read more at news.bbc.co.uk ...
“He says he was captured by Germans in his native Ukraine while fighting for the Red Army and kept as a prisoner of war. “
If this were true, there would be records of it and seems as tho it would be very easy for him to prove.
Even if he’s guilty, wasn’t he basically “eliminating populations we don’t want too many of”.
That’s a quote from Justice Ginsberg describing her thoughts about what Roe v. Wade is all about....
So,, a guy from Ukraine, (at best a sergeant) is being charged with Nazi atrocities, by a German prosecutor,,, in Munich, using evidence provided by the USSR?
They need to look up “irony” in the dictionary.
Meanwhile all kinds of octogenarian Germans, who served as Officers in the SS, are trudging through Munich this afternoon, going for a nice summer walk in the park.
They already tried and convicted him of being "Ivan the Terrible," but the conviction was later overturned.
Now they're accusing him of being some other Nazi war criminal.
Seems as tho (sic) the authorities find it easy to 'prove' just about anything.
No kidding. They have been after this guy for as long as I can remember. And where are his counterparts? I have never heard about any other zealous hunt other than this guy. It’s as if he was the ONLY one who committed crimes. This whole case has smelled fishy from the start. I am not defending him, but what the hell?
29000 charges could make for a long trial.
So I guess they’ll just keep trying until something sticks?
After the ‘snip’:
“And in March 2009, prosecutors in Munich issued a warrant for his arrest, accusing him of being an accessory in the deaths of Jews.
They said they had documents proving his Nazi background, including an SS identity card which showed he had been a guard at Sobibor between March and September 1943, and many witness testimonies.”
Because some murderers get away, one you caught should not?
For the record, there is ample evidence, show in US Court and on appeak, that this guy is a murderer:
http://spectator.org/blog/2009/04/15/the-case-against-demjanjuk-and/print
From the Court:
“The government had the burden of proving its contention to the Court by clear, convincing, and unequivocal evidence. It did so. Although the Court carefully considered the evidence submitted by defendant to attempt to keep the government from satisfying its burden, the defendant’s evidence was not sufficiently credible to cast doubt on the documentary evidence.”
Upheld by the Second Circuit
His involvment in murder is no longer open to reasonable dispute.
If there is any good to come out of this "trial" would be that Demjanjuk's old age care is pretty much taken care of.
If the Germans are going to execute Demjanjuk, they must be hasty.
Correction, Sixth Circuit:
“The 6th U.S. Circuit appeals panel said the government has proved “through clear, unequivocal and convincing evidence” that Demjanjuk was a guard at the Sobibor extermination camp and at the Majdanek and Flossenbürg concentration camps, and a member of the SS-run Trawniki unit “dedicated to exploiting and exterminating” Jews in Poland. “
The question is was this guy a Sgt. Schultz walking a post or was he Major Hochstetter rounding up innocent civilians. Given that Israel’s highest court overturned his previous conviction, I tend think the guy was a Sgt. Schultz.
I agree about not defending him, but something is fishy. The sheer number of Germans in the death camp business, implies that incredible numbers of them are right back in their society. Their military kept meticulous records. If you were assigned there, it should be hard to hide.
Seems odd that they are still after this guy. I really dislike Nazis, and hate the way these threads can attract the “Stormfront” mentality types. But that said, if the ISRAELI justice system decided to let him go, that sure gets my attention.
Eyewitness identification is dicey 2 days later. 50 or 60 years get almost silly. I went to my 30th reunion and didnt recognize a few people i really should have.
The post to the damning information are on this very thread.
Way to show your agenda and lack of reading ability, Pat.
On December 22, 1971 at the age of 71, Erich Bauer received a PARDON from the West German government. But he was only the guy known as the “gasmeister” who operated the gas equipment at Sobibor.
He served some time,,, but a pardon? Something is up. And the US Courts are more trustworthy on holocaust issues than a court in Tel Aviv? I don’t buy it. Anyway, the issue in US courts was immigration and visa issues, not homicide.
Is that why (after sentencing him to death) Israel dropped all charges and set "the world's most-wanted Nazi war criminal" free?
The quarry for "Nazi hunters" like Zuroff must be getting rather sparse if someone like Demjanjuk is the world's most wanted.
“But that said, if the ISRAELI justice system decided to let him go, that sure gets my attention.”
I followed this case very closely in Israel, as my wife’s family had the joy of being in Polish camps, first with the Germans, then the Soviets -— they essentially walked to Israel.
He was not brought up on these charges in Israel for various technical legal reasons.
They have charges prepared that he is Vlad the Impaler. We’ll have to see how this one goes first.
I don’t want to see a NAZI war criminal get away with it. I am still troubled by how this guy has been bounced around being tried of being one person, now another.
There is also the issue of letting some people get off, while taking to task people who held positions much less responsible.
Verner Von Braun was the lead guy at Peenemünde. He and 500 others surrendered to the U.S. troops there. Jewish people were treated terribly there. He and they were never tried. Why is this guy more guilty than they were?
Were they shipped off to Israel or Germany? Was their citizenship revoked, they deported to other nations even though we knew damn well their participation at a base where Jewish people were starved to death or worse?
“Anyway, the issue in US courts was immigration and visa issues, not homicide.”
Not really, the issue in US courts was about homicide being lied about for immigration and visa issues.
The evidence is at the links, including the raw court opinion.
He’s a killer.
Ok.
Didn’t read the entire link but generally, as a matter of history, the truth isn’t far away.
“Verner Von Braun was the lead guy at Peenemünde. He and 500 others surrendered to the U.S. troops there. Jewish people were treated terribly there. He and they were never tried. Why is this guy more guilty than they were?”
I agree. Von Braun should have been pumped for info, then hung.
Immigration issue? LMAO, since when is our government concerned with immigration issues? ROTF...
Our immigration department is one of the longest standing jokes in our nation’s history.
Ok..
Thanks..
And a few years ago, before he was deported to Israel, werent they just as sure of the other damning information, that now they admit was mistaken?
News Flash, July 14, 2045. Frail, and wheelchair bound ex President George Bush was indicted for the 23rd time by the Obama Administration on charges of war crimes during the Iraq war at the turn of the century.
No. He was extradicted the first time; not deported.
All that is necessary for extradition is whatever it takes to get an idictment under the law of the country with whom we have a extradition treaty -— “probable cause” or whatnot.
The raw court opinion on the DEPORTATION is set forth above. The legal standard is “clear and convicing evidence.”
It’s very clear.
How many guys on the “wanted” list are still around?? Wonder how we justified the “creator” of NASA, Verner Von Braun? He certainly used slave labor to build those V1 and V2 rockets slamming into London and other locales.
Add to your list of “why the hell do they live” the various Japanese scientists who created super-diseases and tested them on Chinese civilians and US soldiers.
We can’t get them all, but we should get the ones we can.
Aint that the truth? Millions stream in from everywhere,,including murderous types from go9vernments in africa, the middle east, southeast asia, central america, etc,,, and immigration goes after visa appllicants from the 1950s.
And thats a huge point about Von Braun. The V2s were built in that cave factory by jewish slaves. Supposed to be hell on earth, but the honcho of the whole operation never had a clue how his missiles were being built?
You always see that video of his surrender,, smoking, laughing, etc. Sickening. And that doesnt even mention the civilian people he killed in London.
News Flash, July 14, 2045. Frail, and wheelchair bound ex President George Bush was indicted for the 23rd time by the Obama Administration on charges of war crimes during the Iraq war at the turn of the century.
You nailed that one. I really expect that to be true. He will get the Pinochet treatment someday.
He certainly should have stood trial. He and his cohorts knew that people were being severely mistreated. Despite this, he and they helped the NAZI machine.
Let’s see: Israel convicted him of being “Ivan the Terribleâ€, Israeli Supreme Court overturns and says he wasn’t Ivan so now the people that accused this man of being a war criminal now have “new information†that he is someone else. Sounds more like there are people that have decided this man committed war crimes, which he may have, and they are going to get him convicted no matter what it takes.
Actually, you sound like the one with an agenda and are using the same tactics as the left, if anyone disagrees with you attack the person don’t defend your position. Learn that over at du?
Yeah,, thats a classy one too. We gave him immunity for the contents of his “research” notes. Incredible.
Too bad we don’t go after the camp guards of the Gulag with the same zeal and zest we go after Nazi camp guards. And the Soviets slaughtered millions more people than the Nazis ever did.
Seems to me the Germans are going all out here to try to tell the world, “See, not all Nazis were Germans.”
Pat, the evidence is clear, if you wanted to read it.
But I guess you think WWII was Churchill’s fault, too, huh?
Certainly true.
Unfortunately, we didn’t get an unconditional surrender from the Soviets.
The same could be said for Jewish Kapos that worked in the ghettoes. Did Demjanjuk really have a choice? If he was returned to the Soviet Union, he was a dead man, because anyone who was taken prisoner by the Nazis, was considered a traitor by Stalin. So then what were his choices, cooperate with the Nazis or be killed. Just saying that there should be some extenuating circumstances considered here.
Right. Makes about as much sense as having Stalin's minions sitting in judgement of Nazi war criminals at the Nuremburg trials, eh?
I think this is about the 4th or 5th different country that has charged this guy with crimes . . . and I'm not sure if any of them has ever had the legal authority to do it!
And of course the NKVD (KGB) would never forge evidence, would they?
The claim of faked KGB information was well-debunked in the trial.
No but let’s face it, no matter how you slice and dice it, Demjanjuk is small potatoes. We’re not talking about an Eichmann or a Kaltenbrunner here.
It will be interesting to see if any NEW evidence is presented at this trial. Are there any eyewitneses alive who could positively identify him after all these years?
But again, why is it this this time the Germans are so gung-ho about going against Demjanjuk, a non-German/Austrian, when they’ve been lax against German war criminals.
Demjanjuk to me, was just another victim of the German Nazis, who put him in a situation where he had to lose his humanity, just to stay alive.
Anyway, if he was a nazi camp murderer, im for prosecution. But a lot of good people will suddenly do very bad things when they know their own murder is the alternative. We all talk bold, but if a government starts a mass murder, soon you are forced to decide whether you will die, or try to stay away while not looking like a resister. That war put many people in that position.
I don’t think we need to pursue them, be they a German soldier, or a Ukrainian POW turned guard, whatever. I think you go after the decision makers who put them in that position. To me this is the political leaders, the commissioned officers, etc. Very few enlisted men fit that standard.
So for me, eichman, mengele, von braun, barbie, etc,, fair game. Enlisted men, generally not except on fairly unusual circumstances.
You nailed it.
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