Can anyone tell me how many police officers lives, indeed suspects lives, have been saved utilizing their overwhelming force concept? How do you count tragedies that never happened?
That is how police forces used to execute warrants for decades, with few violent incidents.
If you're going after a known violent criminal, it's one thing. But if you're looking to arrest a drug dealer with no violent felony convictions? SWAT teams just escalate the situation.
You mean it would be too hard on them to nab the guy as he's coming out of the 7/11 with a big gulp in one hand and a chili cheese dog in the other???? Didn't David Koresh always go on a run by himself every morning??? The ATF could have just arrested him then with no incident.
Thank you. I agree.
Because they have these guys trained up and ready to go, they tend to use them as a first recourse rather than the last.
I love the idea of overwhelming force when force is required. I don't like the idea of militarized cops kicking down a door when they haven't yet tried knocking. There are cases where knocking is too dangerous. Thats when you call SWAT. Not when you have an old lady, or a middle-aged couple padding around in their pajamas. I think the burden should be on the cops to show that overwhelming force was required.
I would normally side with the cops, but there have been a couple of SWAT cases lately that have irritated me.
I think the main bone of contention boils down to two factors:
i) The 'overwhelming force' concept should only be used when the case warrants for it. For instance, if it is a raid on a MS-13 gang-house, neutralizing a hostage situation, or other high-risk scenarios that require maximum force. However, the stories that are coming out show SWAT teams being used for drug busts (e.g. the marijuana case above), serving warrants, and other situations that do not fit what SWAT was created for. After all, it is special weapons and tactics, isn't it?
ii) This is probably more important than the first one. The PD needs to be doing THOROUGH RESEARCH! If you are willing to use SWAT, which means you are moving with the premise that it is a dangerous subject that you are going to TRY to apprehend, then very thorough research needs to be done to ensure that you have the right address. There are too many cases of SWAT going left instead of right, knocking down the neighbor's house, or other cases of mistaken ID. If SWAT just knocked down the homes of FReepers, I would not be surprised if a gun fight broke out and people died (in most cases NOT the SWAT since they would be moving in with fingers on the trigger).
Anyways, SWAT is useful. The concept was created for a very real reason, and it has saved lives. However it is not an instrument to be used just for the heck of it, and warrant issues and marijuana busts are not what SWAT was made for. Furthermore, before releasing such a formidable force, proper research needs to be done to ensure that the target home is indeed the one people should be going for.
Take this case for instance ....a quick double-take would have indicated it was the mayor's house, which would have made any logical person think twice (not that mayors do not take dope ....cough cough Chicago .....but at least it should make someone check to see if their information is correct). However it seems that the fellas had no time for that.
In most cases, IMO, tragedies occur due to the lack of due diligence done by the LEOs.
I would guess almost none.
Two LEO knocking on a door executing a search warrant used to be a simple event. They knock, tell the suspect they have a warrant and open the door. If trouble arises, then you call in SWAT
The problem is they want to preserve the drug evidence from being flushed. So they do a dynamic no knock entry, shoot the dogs, tazer grandma, handcuff your wife and children, toss your house, treat your family like criminals.
Oops, wrong address, bad informant, so sorry.
Better yet they find a small baggie of pot you and your wife smoke on weekends cause your idiot neighbor thinks your are dealing dope because you smoked a joint on the back porch over the weekend
How often do suspects seek to engage in shootouts with police? Given that police are less likely to be killed on the job than taxi drivers, and that most police fatalities are a result of vehicle collisions, the widespread use of pseudo-SWAT raids is patently unreasonable.
What's wrong with the old-fashioned approach of forming a perimeter and using a megaphone to get a suspect's attention? If a citizen looks out his window and sees a half-dozen cop cars with flashing lights, he can have a pretty good clue that the people outside are police (among other things, most non-badge-wearing criminals would be loath to call such attention to themselves). By contrast, in most pseudo-SWAT raids, the police deliberately try to avoid letting citizens recognize them as police. How can that possibly be a wise or reasonable idea (and by extension to the latter point, how can it possibly be legitimate, since per Article VI and Amendment IV, any unreasonable searches are illegitimate).
Who cares?
Cops are paid to take the risk.
Sorry; I support law enforcement, but there is no way I can support these “massive force” SWAT raids for such minor crimes.
You hire an Enron accountant.
I justice system is setup to let 100 guilty men go free, to prevent just 1 innocent man from being jailed or executed.
How is the use of force any different?
Can you provide evidence that an increase in shootouts is an inevitable result of no SWAT entry to serve warrants? Most large size departments utilized Warrant Squads or warrant service tactics back in the day before SWAT. I knew a guy who was the "high risk officer" in a department in the '60s and '70s. He had fewer shots fired incidents than the street cops because of his meticulous planning.
Can anyone tell me how many police officers lives, indeed suspects lives, have been saved utilizing their overwhelming force concept? How do you count tragedies that never happened?
You can't. But you can count tragedies that have occurred because of "utilizing their overwhelming force concept." I'd say the burden is on police to justify this response on routine warrant service.
Fine with me. Being a cop is a relatively safe job and they're overpaid anyway.
The issue here is lives LOST due to p!ss-poor prior planning coupled with overwhelming (and unnecessary) military-style force. So it doesn’t matter if a cop’s life is saved by their terror tactics. Cops get paid to take risks. Just like members of the military. Let THEM take the chances instead of ordinary citizens. No cop should be anywhere near a person’s private residence (or any other private building) if he or she is NOT IN PROPER UNIFORM. With faces and badges completely visible. Ever. No plainclothes raids, no SWAT teams, no nothing of the sort.