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To: forkinsocket

The kilt not invented until the 19th century? Somebody should have told Mel Gibson. William Wallace and all his braveheart lads are in kilts. The Irish too.


4 posted on 06/11/2008 11:49:18 AM PDT by sasportas
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To: sasportas

He shouldn’t have done it anyway, because he was a lowlander and his language, custom and dress would have had more in common with a northumbrian englishman than a scottish highlander....


6 posted on 06/11/2008 12:13:24 PM PDT by thundrey
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To: sasportas; forkinsocket
We went round and round on this awhile ago.

Trevor-Roper (or his editor, or his publicist) is being deliberately deceptive or at least exaggerating. The underlying facts are not news and have been known to everybody for years. "Ossian" was exposed as a fraud almost immediately, and nobody seriously contended for its authenticity. The Scots got stroppy about it (and still do) when it was used as a launching pad for general abuse of Scotland (something of which dear Dr. Johnson, much as I admire him, was far too fond).

The "kilt" as we know it today indeed probably was invented in the 18th century (although there are recorded examples of similar garments back into the 17th century - probably earlier attempts to modify the original garment that didn't catch on.) But the original of the kilt, the "belted plaid," was worn by Highlanders as far back as we have records. It basically looks like a kilt and shoulder plaid all in one piece, with the pleats not permanently sewn in -- it was just a big rectangle of cloth. You gathered it together over your belt, crossed the ends over the front, fastened your belt, and stood up (breathing heavily). The extra fabric hung down in the back like a tail, or could be used as a cloak or raincoat. The whole thing was thrown off to go into battle, so you had a bunch of screaming lunatics in their shirt-tails waving large basket-hilt broadswords around, which would unnerve almost anybody.

As for tartans, the "tartan for every clan and sept" nonsense was invented by the Victorians, who loved to pigeonhole stuff. And it wasn't an ironclad rule, folks wore what they liked. But there are a number of tartans associated with particular districts (and thus particular clans, mostly) that predate 1745 - as well as the Black Watch or military pattern.

7 posted on 06/11/2008 12:18:02 PM PDT by AnAmericanMother (Ministrix of Ye Chase, TTGC Ladies' Auxiliary (recess appointment))
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To: sasportas
The kilt not invented until the 19th century? Somebody should have told Mel Gibson. William Wallace and all his braveheart lads are in kilts. The Irish too.

Supposedly kilts go back at least as far as the 16th century.

The myth is probably that they are ancient and go back to the earliest days.

Also, it had been Highland garb, and it's not clear whether Lowlanders wore kilts before the 19th century revival.

And those distinctive patterns for different families probably were also more or less the invention of 19th century commercial interests, or at least they systematized what had been sketchy and uncertain.

You can see the same process going on even today.

"Irish county" tartan patterns have been "discovered" or created in our own lifetime.

12 posted on 06/11/2008 1:19:19 PM PDT by x
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To: sasportas

The modern kilt is a modern version of the Celtic all body shawl.

And the notion that up until now, the myth of the modern kilt is not known is bunkum. Bit late, that Roper fellow...

It is well known to the average man in the street in Scotland and throughout Britain, that it is a myth, the whole George IV parading in 1822 in a kilt and the ‘invention’ of the tartan and shortbread idea of Scotland is well known and has been the subject of many a book and TV documentary over the last 40 years...


15 posted on 06/11/2008 2:46:53 PM PDT by the scotsman
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To: sasportas
Braveheart is loaded with anachronisms. In the battle scene, set in 1297, soldiers wear kilts, which apeared much later, and Roman-era blue paint while "hanging a moon" like 21st century American teenagers. It's as if a movie on the Battle of Gettysburg showed soldiers fighting with crossbows, spears, Kalashnikov assault rifles, and rocket-propelled grenades.
17 posted on 06/11/2008 5:06:43 PM PDT by Fiji Hill
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