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Churchill, Hilter and the Unnecessary War (Looking for people who have read it)
Book entitled, "Churchill, Hilter and the Unnecessary War" | Spring 2008 | Patrick J. Buchanan

Posted on 06/09/2008 10:45:11 AM PDT by prolifefirst

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To: swain_forkbeard
Why yes they did, I believe it was shortly after Germany declared war on Poland. Which incidentally, was invested in a well known treaty of alliance with both France and Great Brittan. Not to mention that Hitler declared war on the US after the bombing of Pearl Harbor. The war was only unnecessary if we had some burning desire to spreaken sie Deutsch.
61 posted on 06/09/2008 12:03:22 PM PDT by Camel Joe (liberal=socialist=royalist/imperialist pawn=enemy of Freedom)
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To: badpacifist
I met him in 1995 and liked him. I started reading his column in 1980.

I've defended him from the people who called him a Nazi sympathizer, but no more. Mein Kampf stated Hitler's goals and racial beliefs, including his desires for territory. There was no pacifying Hitler.

Chamberlain betrayed the Czechs at Munich and forfeited the well armed Czech army and the Skoda Works. It put the allies at a severe disadvantage beginning the war.

The Brits signed a defense pact with the Poles because they were the next pending victim. Poland wasn't an ideal ally, but they were who Hitler was planning to attack next. He had immediately violated the Munich Pact and swallowed the rest of Czechoslovakia within months of signing it.

The Nuremberg laws were several years old when these diplomatic entreaties occurred. The Krystalnacht had already happened. The Nazis weren't going to play nice. Outside of the Holocaust deniers, this is the stupidest point of view I've ever read on the subject.

62 posted on 06/09/2008 12:08:03 PM PDT by Luke21
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To: Eric in the Ozarks
Try reading books from the era sometime.

Try actually giving a citation instead of making wild claims and smug comebacks.

Steven Ambrose says in his Nixon: the Triumph of a Politician, 1962-1972 that Nixon's advisor Arthur Berns and the Democrats in Congress had built up such momentum for a freeze on wages and prices that Nixon felt he had to go along.

I don't know if that's right but the idea that an ordinary speechwriter or even a Special Assistant to the President could override Nixon's aversion to wage and price controls is worse than ridiculous.

Fortunately for us (and disastrously for Nixon) a lot of his discussions are preserved on tape. More here. Buchanan wasn't even in the room when the inflation problem was discussed.

63 posted on 06/09/2008 12:08:59 PM PDT by x
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To: prolifefirst

Pat Buchanan is a Jew hater. I would not waste any time reading his trash. Wonder if anyone in his family was ever a part of the American Bund.

For the true story about Churchill, read William Manchester’s “The Last Lion”. Manchester’s “American Caesar” is also an excellent biography of MacArthur. I also recommend William L Shirer’s “Rise and Fall of the Third Reich”.

If you are really ambitious, try Churchill’s “The Gathering Storm”. I have all 6 volumes of Churchill’s “History of the Second World War”. I read all of “The Gathering Storm” about 20 years ago and only finished about 25% of the next volume. They are difficult to read but a good reference.


64 posted on 06/09/2008 12:13:46 PM PDT by DFG
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To: Peter Libra
Could the European Jews have been bought freedom on enormous payments. Monies that Germany claimed that France had wiped out post WW2?

Leaving aside the absurdity of the claim, how? On of Hitlers first actions was to strip Jews of citizenship, employment, and property. In Germany, Jews of other European states had to wait till Germany occupied them.

65 posted on 06/09/2008 12:13:58 PM PDT by SJackson (It is impossible to build a peace process based on blood, Natan Sharansky)
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To: mnehrling
I concur fully.

It is a bit ironic that Pat Buchanan would be a disgrace — even to the grossly flawed Nixon regime.

I have long despised Buchanan — and not only for his crassly displayed and virulent Anti-Semitism — but for his bigoted mindset over a wide range of issues in which he displays gross ignorance.

A pathetic shell of a man.

66 posted on 06/09/2008 12:14:16 PM PDT by dk/coro
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To: PC99

You should remove the word “flirts”. PB is one of the biggest Jew haters in this country (after Jimmy Carter).


67 posted on 06/09/2008 12:16:06 PM PDT by DFG
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To: prolifefirst

I have not read the book, but I couldn’t help saying that the concept of the “unnecessary war” goes back at least 60 years to Winston Churchill and The Gathering Storm. Many authors such as William Shirer, Donald Cameron Watt, and Martin Gilbert have written on the subject. Here is one Churchill quote.

“It is my purpose, as one lived and acted in these days, to show how easily the tragedy of the Second World War could have been presented; how the malice of the wicked was reinforced by the weakness of the virtuous; how the structure and habits of democratic states, unless they are welded into larger organisms, lack those elements of persistence and conviction which alone give security to humble masses; how, even is matters of self-preservation, no policy is pursued to even ten or fifteen years at a time. We shall see how the counsels of prudence and restraint may become the prime agents of mortal danger; how the middle course adopted from the desires for safety and a quiet life may be found to lead direct to the bull’s-eye of disaster. We shall see how absolute is the need of a broad path of international action pursued by many states in common across the years, irrespective of the ebb and flow of national politics”.


68 posted on 06/09/2008 12:23:32 PM PDT by Retain Mike
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To: dfwgator

More like “Lord Dum Dum.”


69 posted on 06/09/2008 12:25:00 PM PDT by Stonewall Jackson (Accept the challenges so that you can feel the exhilaration of victory. - George Patton)
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To: All

A lot of people on this thread have claimed that Buchanan is anti-semetic.

What can I read that shows this?


70 posted on 06/09/2008 12:26:31 PM PDT by prolifefirst
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To: prolifefirst

This thread is the most useless kind of vanity - normally on FR a thread is started with a substantive article that can be discussed. If someone wants to post a “vanity” thread without an article, there ought to be at least some substantial info, facts, and/or arguments offered that can be discussed. You don’t want to bother to do the minimal work of actually describing an argument you want to discuss, you expect other posters to provide the info to give your vanity thread some content. Then you snipe at people who state why they do not expect PB’s book to be worth reading and still you provide no facts, reasoning or arguments.

This is the most annoying kind of vanity thread.


71 posted on 06/09/2008 12:26:50 PM PDT by Enchante (Barack Chamberlain: My 1930s Appeasement Policy Goes Well With My 1960s Socialist Policies!)
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To: prolifefirst
“Is there anyone out there who has read the book?”

I heard Buchanan discuss the book on Glen Beck's show. The essence of Buchanan's “argument” is that the defeat of Hitler's Germany in WWII allowed Stalin's Russia to control Eastern and Central Europe for 45 years and led to the deaths of many millions of people with “Western values.” So, at best Buchanan's thesis is that, by capitulating to Hitler's demands, we could have traded the lives of 6 million Jews and gypsies for the lives of 20-30 million non-Jews.

On Beck's show, Buchanan revealed a complete misunderstanding (or willful denial) of both the origins of WWI (yes, WWI) and the sequence of events leading to the German conquest of Czechoslovakia, the Baltic states, and Poland.

72 posted on 06/09/2008 12:28:46 PM PDT by riverdawg
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To: Enchante

I said in my title that this thread is aimed at people who have read the book.

I was hoping that knowledgable people, having read the book would be able to argue for or against Buchanan’s points in some detail.


73 posted on 06/09/2008 12:30:33 PM PDT by prolifefirst
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To: prolifefirst

I’m not very well read on the topic.


74 posted on 06/09/2008 12:31:33 PM PDT by prolifefirst
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To: prolifefirst

You can start with the first paragraph of my post 72.


75 posted on 06/09/2008 12:31:58 PM PDT by riverdawg
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To: Peter Libra

Two different reactions to Munich 1938:

Chamberlain: Peace in our time.
Hitler: Are enemies are little worms, I saw them in Munich.


76 posted on 06/09/2008 12:34:39 PM PDT by dfwgator ( This tag blank until football season.)
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To: dfwgator

Are=Our


77 posted on 06/09/2008 12:34:55 PM PDT by dfwgator ( This tag blank until football season.)
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To: Luke21
The only "defense" I have of Chamberlain is from a History of the World vol,ume that was published just before the outbreak of WWII. It states Chamberlain's policy was to let Hitler and Stalin fight over the continent and weaken each other, whereas Britain would stay out of it and be the most powerful country in a post-dictators Europe.

Staying clear of it might have been a plausible strategy but oddly the Allies then decided they had to go to war when Hitler/Stalin divided Poland. Seems to me everyone got a wake up call when Poland was divided by Hitler and Stalin, suddenly they realized that sitting on the sidelines wasn't going to work.

I have read criticism of how all this was handled, because the Allies didnt defend the Czechs, which they could have done successfully, but they then went to war over Poland which they couldn't possibly save, and which of course then resulted in teh loss of France.

Of course there were many screw ups, the main saving factor being the Allies eventually won. But at great loss. Hitler had plans all along to take Britain and eventually America so the fight was unavoidable.

78 posted on 06/09/2008 12:35:38 PM PDT by Williams
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To: riverdawg
I heard Buchanan discuss the book on Glen Beck's show. The essence of Buchanan's “argument” is that the defeat of Hitler's Germany in WWII allowed Stalin's Russia to control Eastern and Central Europe for 45 years and led to the deaths of many millions of people with “Western values.” So, at best Buchanan's thesis is that, by capitulating to Hitler's demands, we could have traded the lives of 6 million Jews and gypsies for the lives of 20-30 million non-Jews.

The unstated premise that Europe under the Reich would have had no further ambitions, rather would have served as a preserver of "western values", as defined by Adolph. No Jews, just right, and former Christians could have reveled in the Reichs Church. All depends on what one considers western values I suppose.

79 posted on 06/09/2008 12:36:14 PM PDT by SJackson (It is impossible to build a peace process based on blood, Natan Sharansky)
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June 2, 2008 Issue
Copyright © 2007 The American Conservative

http://www.amconmag.com/2008/2008_05_19/article2.html

Necessary Evil

Churchill, Hitler, and the Unneces-sary War: How Britain Lost Its Empire and the West Lost the World, Patrick J. Buchanan, Crown, 501 pages

by John Lukacs

Patrick Buchanan’s new book contains two themes under one cover. One is addressed to the present, the other to the Second World War. One is his declaration that the American empire is in great and deep trouble—that, like the British Empire two thirds of a century ago, it is overextended and weak. The other is that the Second World War was a grievous mistake—that Britain (foremost: Churchill) and America should not have fought Hitler’s Germany. The two themes are not equivalent, and their treatment in this book is uneven. The vast majority of pages are about World War II. But in Buchanan’s mind the two themes are obviously inextricable, indeed, dependent on each other. For the purpose of a review, however, I must separate them.

That the present American empire is much overextended, overgrown, and at risk of all kinds of dangers, most of them willfully ignored by the American people and their politicians, is so. Buchanan deserves credit for having pointed this out, again and again, in his articles and books. But, alas, in his discussion of his larger thesis, his arguments are stamped by what we might call selective indignation or, more accurately, special pleading. (Indignation, after all, is almost always selective, while not every pleading is necessarily special.)

He claims that the transformation of the United States from a Republic to an empire was started by George W. Bush. What Bush has done and is still doing is, of course, lamentable. But the reaching out of American power all over the world, the fact that there are now American bases and missions in more than 700 places around the globe, the building of a 600-ship Navy, etc., began with Eisenhower and Dulles. It went on with Johnson, Nixon, Carter, and especially with Buchanan’s hero, Reagan, and then under Clinton. Already in 1956, Section Nine of the Republican Party platform called for “the establishment of American air and navy bases all around the world.” This was the party that so many liberal commentators still wrongly called “isolationist.” This was the party to which Patrick Buchanan adhered and the American foreign policy that he vocally thumped for until very recently.

The other trouble with Buchanan’s anti-imperialist thesis is his argument that what happened to the British Empire applies obviously to the present American one. There are two points against this. One is that history does not repeat itself, and the rise and decline of Britain’s empire was and remains quite different from the American situation. Buchanan’s argument is that the Second World War—more precisely, Churchill’s decision to resist Hitler, no matter what the cost—was a disaster for Western civilization but, more directly, for the British Empire itself. Yet the gradual liquidation of the British Empire, and the piecemeal acceptance by the British people of that, long preceded World War II.

The further and perhaps deeper problem is Buchanan’s sincerity. Since when has he been an admirer of the British Empire? There is no evidence for such an affection in his public or writing career until now. To the contrary, there is ample evidence of his conviction that the United States should not have supported Britain and its empire either in the First or in the Second World War.

Here I arrive at the main theme of this book. How Britain Lost Its Empire and the West Lost the World is only its subtitle, its main title being Churchill, Hitler, and the Unnecessary War. This emphasis accords with what is—and has been for a long time—Buchanan’s view of history. The Second World War was an unnecessary war; a wrong war, especially involving Europe; it was wrong to fight Hitler; and Churchill was primarily, indeed principally, responsible. A man has, or more precisely chooses, his opinions. The choice, ever so often, depends on his inclinations. In this review it is not my proper business to speculate about Buchanan’s inclinations. I must restrict myself to questioning his arguments.

The British decision to offer an alliance to Poland in 1939 was a hasty one, replete with unintended consequences. Partly true. Hitler did not wish to destroy the British Empire. Partly true. He did want to destroy Communism and the Soviet Union. Partly true. Churchill was a warrior; he was obsessed with the danger of German power. Partly true. Hitler wanted to expel Jews from Europe but not to exterminate them, at least not while the former policy was still possible. Again, partly true. Or in other words, true but not true enough. Here is a difference between Patrick Buchanan and David Irving. The latter employs falsehoods; Buchanan employs half-truths. But, as Thomas Aquinas once put it, “a half-truth is more dangerous than a lie.”

The Second World War began in September 1939, with Hitler’s armies invading Poland. Buchanan writes that the British commitment to Poland was a stupid mistake and that the Poles should not have fought Hitler. Now here is an example of a special pleader’s method: selective quotation. Buchanan will quote A.J.P. Taylor when this suits him, as when Taylor wrote, “Only Danzig prevented cooperation between Germany and Poland.” (Taylor was wrong: all evidence shows that what Hitler wanted was a Poland bereft of any independence from Germany.) Of course, Buchanan will not cite Taylor’s four words describing Churchill: “The savior of England.”

Let me now raise the question: What would have happened if Britain and France had allowed Hitler to conquer Poland? After that he would have gone further east and then conquered the Soviet Union, with the acquiescence of the West. All to the good, Buchanan writes, since Communism was evil, more dangerous than German National Socialism. But there is—and there ought to be—no comparison here. Germany was part and parcel of European culture, civilization, and tradition. Russia was not. Stalin had a predecessor, Ivan the Terrible. Hitler had none. German National Socialist brutality was unprecedented. Russian brutality was not. Nationalism, not Communism, was the main political force in the 20th century, and so it is even now. When the Third Reich collapsed in 1945, perhaps as many as 10,000 Germans killed themselves, and not all of these had been Nazis. When the Soviet Union and Communist rule in Eastern Europe collapsed in 1989, I do not know of a single Communist, whether in Russia or elsewhere, who committed suicide.

There was a consistency in Churchill’s view of Europe and of the world. To him, and for Britain, there were only two alternatives: either all of Europe dominated by Germany or the eastern half of Europe dominated by Russia, and half—especially the western half—of Europe was better than none. Besides, Churchill said that the Russians could swallow Eastern Europe but not digest it and that Communism would disappear from Eastern Europe before long. If Hitler had won the war, German rule would have been much more enduring.

This is not the first of Buchanan’s many expressions of his visceral and intellectual antipathy to Churchill. Irving’s main method in defending Hitler is to blacken all of Hitler’s opponents, foremost among them Churchill. But then he is obsessed with what is and what is not true of the Holocaust. Buchanan is not. In this book, Buchanan deprecates Hitler: in 1942 “he was absorbed in self-pity: and he was condemning his own people.” On page 383: Hitler’s was “an evil and odious regime.” But there is a fatal contradiction in Buchanan’s theses: Hitler’s regime—including, one may think, its expansion—was evil, but warring against him was unnecessary and wrong. Either thesis may be argued, but not both.    
___________________________________

 

From Pitchfork Pat to Brownshirt Buchanan

National Review

http://blogs.tnr.com/tnr/blogs/the_plank/archive/2008/06/04/allow-me.aspx

In the latest issue of The American Conservative, the Old Right magazine founded by Taki Theodoracopulos and Pat Buchanan, historian John Lukacs reviews Buchanan's latest book, Churchill, Hitler, and the Unnecessary War: How Britain Lost Its Empire and the West Lost the World (yes, it's actually called that). The review is absolutely devastating, and the least that can be said of Buchanan is that he would exemplify the sort of editorial freedom in which a writer could compare him unfavorably to David Irving within the pages of his own magazine (that Buchanan might fancy a favorable comparison to Irving is beside the point). I know few editors who would publish a harsh critique of a book authored by someone on his masthead.

Lukacs begins his review by pointing out the historical amnesia required to make the claim, as Buchanan does, that an American "empire" was inaugurated under the watch of George W. Bush. America's status as a superpower began with the simultaneous end of World War II, the fall of the European powers, and the rise of the Cold War. Buchanan appears to contradict himself here, as he has been ranting about American "empire" at least since 1999, with the publishing of his isolationist tome A Republic, Not an Empire.

More important, however, is Lukacs's take down of Buchanan's most sinister argument, which is that not only was the Second World War "unnecessary," but the fault of Franklin Delano Roosevelt and, chiefly, Winston Churchill. Lukacs writes:


Here I arrive at the main theme of this book. How Britain Lost Its Empire and the West Lost the World is only its subtitle, its main title being Churchill, Hitler, and the Unnecessary War. This emphasis accords with what is—and has been for a long time—Buchanan’s view of history. The Second World War was an unnecessary war; a wrong war, especially involving Europe; it was wrong to fight Hitler; and Churchill was primarily, indeed principally, responsible. A man has, or more precisely chooses, his opinions. The choice, ever so often, depends on his inclinations. In this review it is not my proper business to speculate about Buchanan’s inclinations. I must restrict myself to questioning his arguments.


Far be it from me to speculate about Lukacs's hesitance to question Buchanan's inclinations. Perhaps he'll allow me to do so in his stead.

Now, it's possible that, based upon a good faith reading of history, Pat Buchanan really does believe that the Nazi conquest of Europe would have been better for America (Buchanan argues that had the US remained uninvolved, Germany would have defeated the Soviet Union and thus spared the world the horrors of international communism) than what actually happened during the years 1941-1945. Or maybe Pat Buchanan simply has a place in his heart for ethnic nationalists and brown shirts. Sympathy for racists and authoritarians runs in his family, after all, his father was a fan of General Franco and Joseph McCarthy who told his sons they should be proud to be the descendants of Mississippi Confederates. In his political career, Buchanan had ample opportunity to elucidate his own animus towards minorities throughout his work for Richard Nixon and later as a fringe presidential candidate in 1992 and 1996, issuing dire warnings about the brown hordes banging on America's gates. There was something more than a desire to be provocative in his defense of various Nazi war criminals in the 1990s, as well as his assertions that "diesel engines do not emit enough carbon monoxide to kill anybody" and that some Holocaust survivors engage in "group fantasies of martyrdom and heroics." Yet it was claims about American Jews goading the United States into war with Iraq (the first time) that generated the greatest indictment of Buchanan, which came from one of his mentors, Bill Buckley. In his magisterial, book-length essay, "In Search of Anti-Semitism," the recently departed founder of National Review concluded, "I find it impossible to defend Pat Buchanan against the charge that what he did and said during the period under examination, the military build-up for the Gulf War, amounted to anti-Semitism."

How is it that Pat Buchanan enjoys so much mainstream credibility as of late (he is a near-constant appearance on MSNBC)? This was the man, after all, who relished the moniker "pitchfork Pat" not so long ago. It can't be for his retrograde views on minorities, immigration, homosexuality or any of the cultural issues on which the media has taken a decidedly liberal stance. Rather, I believe that the subtle mainstreaming of Pat Buchanan is owed to his strident America First-ism, which is unfortunately gaining new currency due to an unpopular war. The popularity of Ron Paul -- who carried the mantle of Pat Buchanan in this presidential race -- exemplified this disturbing trend inward.

 --James Kirchick

 


80 posted on 06/09/2008 12:38:41 PM PDT by SJackson (It is impossible to build a peace process based on blood, Natan Sharansky)
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