Posted on 05/16/2008 7:10:50 PM PDT by brityank
Get your John Deere out and move this.
Once you get that done you can get your tractor in to where the people are trapped.
More pics here. Actual heavy equipment in some.
I live in the Rocky Mountains, an area much like the Texas-Oklahoma sized region in China where the quake was only not as steep or unstable. One thing I rarely see in the mountains here, oddly enough, is farm equipment.
Then what?I also heard many rude words without sympathy but abomination and condemn from some western people,some can be seen in this forum.Does it mean all the westerner are coldblood?If that's your logic,then you are blind.
Simply compare where the British "enslaved and raped" the locals in their empire, to other imperialist countries, or worse, where no imperialism occured.
United States, Hong Kong, Singapore, India, Australia etc etc.
Not to mention the final war fought by the Empire to save continental europe from herself.
It's a long bloody history, and nobody can really balance the good and the bad objectively....But I suspect that had the British Navy ceased to exist long ago, that more of the world would look like Burma and Sichuan and less would look like New York.
As you said,really "simply compare".
What a simple logic of bandits!
Then I guess if the fleet of Aliens dock on your house and killed,robbed,slaved you,you may feel happy because your sons may live in a better world with modern technology and culture.
I am now very sure you are blind in some sense.Do you know how many chinese cultural relics collected in the British Museum?More than 23000,the most of total 1.64 million in 47 countries.You think they made a check for them?
Yeah,for you ,the Great Navigation Age and adventure on new world is proudful and profitable.But do you realize just because the plunder of the colony and its country and people which made you so easy to be modern and the victims so indigent?
Then why dont you let German's foot on your country in the final war you mentioned but fight against it?So that's your logic?You won't be colony and others should be yours?
Invading wars are immorality but sometimes acceptable on political and national consideration,especially in histroy.But it's sick to see people prettify it as a benefaction and splurge the thievery to the victims.
I think you both understood sam_paine very well. He’s an idiot. As one of our most popular talk radio hosts, Rush Limbaugh, says “Ignorance is the most dangerous commodity in the world.” Interestingly, that was the Buddha’s most basic message too.
Take my best regards to Mr.Limbaugh and Mr.Buddha.
Thanks.
Done.
I was deeply touched by the true love during this horrible catastrophe. I feel terribly sorry for those people suffered from it. I wish I could do something for them, more than what I am doing now.
There are lots of good deeds happened in this catastrophe that showed true love. Teachers saved their class but lost their lives. Grandma threw the baby out of the window at the life-threatening moment. Many soldiers tried their best to save people under the ruined walls or ceilings.
Seeing all these, everyone would come to tears.
This catastrophe caused a lot of homeless people, and a lot of injured people or even dead people. The wills and faiths of Chinese nation have experienced great challenge. But I believe, Chinese nation is a country that had ever faced a lot of challenges before, we will never surrender to death or any catastrophe, at this very moment, we need be united, stand together, face everything! We will finally have our success!
I wish all the best for the people in Sichuan. Hope they can go over this, and re-gain their courage and rebuild their homes.
God Bless China, God Bless Chinese people.
Thanks your posting.
"Was British imperialism a force for good?" is a very old debate topic, and it's a pretty good primer to practice with before considering America's cultural and economic 'soft-empire' in today's world.
Few events in history can be pigeon-holed into "all good" and "all bad."
FIFTY MILLION plus people died because of WWII. Dreadful. The Pacific and Europe have remained free for half a century. Wonderful.
Was the war good? Would an Imperialist Japanese dominance in the Pacific have been 'better' than the Anglo/American domination? Of course, I say no. You may believe otherwise.
I look at a map like this [ Map of Freedom in the World] and see fingerprints of an empire that left vast swaths of enlightened and improved economic and intellectual freedom, with much less death and destruction than would've been perpetrated on the world by alternate actors.
In Sichuan, I see a preserved ancient culture that does not value freedom and human life as it is in London, or Colorado. I do not subscribe to brityank's aspersion that "it is no different here, or in Britain." It is radically different.
I suspect that had Britain colonized and influenced that area, like so many others during harsh imperial rule, that fewer people would've died in that disaster. That's all.
wasn’t it stalin that said the loss of a million lives is a statistic,
the loss of one life, tragic?
True. True. 'Disaster hits strangers, tragedy strikes one's family.'
I don't subscribe to it either. But I also don't buy the lazy metaphor between Britain's colonization of the world and WWII. One was an aggressive action taken by choice with no intention of helping anyone but the aggressor motivated by arrogance and greed. The other was defensive and taken for no other reason than to save self and others from murder. You can throw all kinds of complicated sub-plot scenarios into it but the bottom line is those were the basic reasons for both phenomena. Actions have consequences and while good can be found in the aftermath of great evil actions that doesn't amount to a justification for committing evil. The negative consequences will still manifest. Such as China's still deeply held isolationist attitude or India's reticence to ally too closely with the west.
You think the end result of forcing modernization on the world at the point of a howitzer is good for both parties. Yet it has done more to "modernize" the rest of the world with arms than it has with tractors and refrigerators. Had the west introduced itself as a friend that would "like to get to know you and come on over to our place sometime" it might be more the other way around.
My point isn't to re-visualize history in an idealized way. Europeans and Americans were what they were in centuries past. Stuff happens and then you clean up the mess and make amends. That's life and history is what it is not what we wish it might have been. My quarrel is with how you want to twist ethics and distort the truth that actions have consequences. Consequences are inevitable and they reflect the nature of the action taken. Justifying evil by noting that human beings have made lemonade out of the lemons life hands them is a way confuse the truth and validate repeating the mistakes of the past.
I pinged a couple of my Indian FRiends. Maybe they will have a different view of it informed by their closer cultural and political experiences. I'm still waiting to hear how you're going to move those thirty ton boulders with your combine.
Sorry, sammy -- you read into the thread what you wanted to respond to, not what was said. Your initial comment was about the lack of heavy equipment in response to a lack of rebar. [#15 to #9] You then went on to totally denigrate the folks who were on the scene trying their best to rescue those they could, and blasted them for not standing around and waiting until you or someone else showed up with a tractor and chain. You get upset that the equipment isn't there at every site within the first few hours, and condemn the entire rescue effort. [#50 to #18]
You think the Chinese builders are the only ones that short-changed their specs? You think the specs we have today, or had 25 years ago, are universal and should be implemented world-wide within six months? Is there no difference in construction standards between a school and an apartmwent building? [#42]
If graft and corruption are not endemic in any society, why do we put white-colar criminals in jail and sieze their assets?
I'm sure China will root out the ones who shorted the specs and others they want to blame, and I'm also sure they'll deal with them a lot more harshly than we would. That the difference in survivability between the schools and community centers verses the other government buildings of like construction is so vast, I expect that a lot of the government functionaries will pay dearly.
But you think opium addiction was preferable.
I'll add and revise my comment from upthread [#52]:
Of course, many (if not most) native Americans make the same mistake...
It's a good read. I recommend it, especially the story of how he saved the bent backs of generations of Vietnamese women -- by the simple expedient of making long-handled brooms for them...
Yes, I do know that. ;^)
And it very aptly illustrates my point; I have no doubt that Sam would give the shirt off his back, as would you or I, to help if we could. There is only so much any of us can do individually, but as a team we can move mountains -- it just takes time, something those folks have now run out of. However, it seems that moving mountains is just what those poor folk in Sichuan were and are doing, as well as worrying about their own families they aren't with to help as they're digging out someone else's child.
I just find the lack of compassion jarring when the fight is with the political entity that they and we can do nothing about at this time. Showing our humanity, and gently espousing our joint desires for freedom, is my -- and I think their -- point.
I completely agree with you -- except that, through this tragedy, I have seen the Chinese people exhibiting great courage. And, I am sure that the people of Sichuan will be even more courageous in the future, because they now know that they have already done courageous things!
Like many Americans, I am, perhaps, most saddened by the many parents who have lost their only child.
You are "good american".Well ,I prefer calling "good human" than that.There are also "ugly chinese" and "good chinese" in China,and even a book named "Ugly Chinese" .I think beyond politics and ideology and before the time "communism" or "imperialism" even "nation" concepts were invented,there are also sentiment,virtue,intelligence,human nature,etc. existed.That's the basis of humanbeing.
Glad to see more people still have humanity.God forgive those who are full of anger,bias and criticism.
Quite so. The human spirit is indomitable when filled with the spirit of loving kindness and compassion.
Very true TE.
OK! Now I can see that I failed miserably in trying to communicate my initial observation.
WAS NOT DENIGRATING THE RESCUERS. I was just observing, to me, what seemed to be a poignant example of the downside of a society which embraces centralized socialism.
Instead of waiting for the chicom cadres "getting the government equipment there" to save them, in a capitalist system, there might have been more private assets naturally available in the area, as they would be in rural Japan, for example. And these would be the first-responder resources naturally seen in any tornado cleanup in Oklahoma, as another example. There's no "Federal Backhoes" waiting to be brought in to SAVE people's lives in the US. It's the local fire departments calling in private heavy equipment when needed.
In addition to all the farmers and ranchers, perhaps there would be a Heavy Equipment Rental businessman or a construction foreman who would throw the gates open and get his private equip out there immediately and worry about the billing later.
Instead in that vertical command economy, the government throws a bunch of soldiers/warm bodies at the problem and looks like they're doing something.
What I see is a society that is pre-configured for more disaster because of stifling centralized control which distrubutes misery more evenly than opportunity.
In fact, it's the ugly part of what I saw in Katrina. The chaos that got the press was a disturbing proportion of people who WERE counting on a central FEMA solution to their predicament and had NO IDEA how to even begin to address their own local situation.
And b-y-, you and I have a different concept of "specifications" it seems. You seem confident that the 'upside' of the Chicoms is that they will deal 'severely' with some scapegoat who didn't build 'to spec.'
No matter what the accepted codes were, obviously there's some level of disaster/load whatever beyond which any structure/plan will fail. So there's a trade-off made everywhere as to cost and expected worst-case attack on the design. But there are other specs, like the US National Electric Code, which has been adapted as the INTERNATIONAL Electrical Code doesn't have arbitrary methods and materials defined for no reason....if you follow that code, and do it exactly like it says, then you automatically get the benefit of a century of testing and development engineering history to ensure that your house won't be consumed by a fire when a tree limb falls through the roof.
Nobody can save the child who is killed when an earthquake drops a boulder on him in his house. BUT, an uninjured child who burns to death because he's trapped in a collapsed building that subsequently catches on fire because some commie cadre omitted a breaker or fuse to save money makes this engineer cringe.
That's another contrast between western systems engineering building something that is safe, and command economy cadres making arbitrary decisions on China-only cheaper/faster wiring specifications that are just enough to keep them from personally being a scapegoat.
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