Posted on 03/18/2008 11:33:18 AM PDT by JZelle
On Feb. 11, the United States announced that four individuals were arrested on charges of conducting espionage operations for the Chinese against American interests. One employee, who worked for the Defense Security Cooperation Agency, was hours from meeting his Chinese intelligence service contact when he was arrested.
I could not disagree more. While there is little broad agreement about U.S. defense and trade policy toward China, there is widespread agreement among security experts that China is systematically seeking classified information about the United States. These arrests were not isolated incidents, but rather just public examples of a long string of events that have been building over the last decade.
One reason China has been successful at obtaining sensitive information is the untraditional spying methodology used by the Chinese, which involves a network of students, tourists and industrial workers. In that regard, the Chinese have a huge advantage on their side — an increasingly educated population of 1.3 billion people with the potential to assist the government in espionage.
These activities reflect Chinese efforts to acquire knowledge that will position China to not only be an equal with the United States, but also to possess a dangerous set of tools that — given the right circumstances — pose a significant threat to the United States. To be clear, I do not believe it is China's direct intention to engage in a military confrontation with the United States. But, with an ever-increasing military budget, increased cyber attacks and stated efforts to form a blue water Navy capable of operating far beyond China's vast coastline, it ought to give U.S. policy-makers pause about the ultimate destination of our most favored trading partner's military might.
(Excerpt) Read more at washingtontimes.com ...
Well now, how could anyone believe such things are happening. All the free traders and free marketers assured us time and again, and particularly when China was given most favored nation status with no human rights strings attached, that the magic of free markets and capitalism would transform the Chinese into freedom loving democrats.
With the brutal crackdown on dissent in Tibet, threats concerning Taiwan, and news of a priority program to develop means to defeat US carrier groups, it all just leaves a person confused. It’s as if our government might actually have made many decisions about China based on purely business interests, voted in by bought and paid for representatives of the people in Congress. It leaves one wondering if it’s possible that our ‘leaders’ don’t have a clue what the hell they’re doing when it comes to China, and other policies. That’s what many of us have thought for years.
“One reason China has been successful at obtaining sensitive information is the untraditional spying methodology used by the Chinese, which involves a network of students, tourists and industrial workers. In that regard, the Chinese have a huge advantage on their side — an increasingly educated population of 1.3 billion people with the potential to assist the government in espionage.”
No, the real ‘huge advantage’ the Chinese have is the US has made all decisions related to China policy based corporate interests and campaign contributions. We’ve stupidly opened all our institutions to the Chinese and, surprise, they’re taking advantage of that open access to spy and steal all that they can.
What a surprise.
So, let's set it straight: you are a socialist who is against free markets, and you try to use any and all facts, no matter how unrelated, to prove your point. Is that correct?
You are arguing against a straw man. Nobody has ever said that capitalism and democracy are the same thing. Nobody has ever said that free markets will magically transform China into a democracy. What people said, correctly, is that economic is one kind of freedom, and when people exercise more freedoms, they tend to seek even more. So free markets ARE a stimulus for democracy.
Now, if you are socialist, why don't you go to some other discussion board. Since when is it conservative to rave against free markets and advocate socialism. Just go to where your friends are.
There has been zero benefit to us enriching the communists in China. For cheap labor, we already had the Phillipines, Taiwan, Malaysia, and countless other places to turn to. Now we have an adversary that has most of our manufacturing secrets, the ability to cause great damage, and a powerhouse that is aligning itself with every two bit thug on the planet.
It's a bit of a misconception: all those places combined would not be 1/10th of China in size.
More importantly, your view of our country's power is a bit exaggerated: you cannot prevent growth of China, once it undertook market reform. That communists are thugs has to be countered by government, not markets. But Bush prefers to appease both China and Mexico, rather than confront them.
You also underestimate the benefit of our trade with China. In sum, you grievances are justifiable but misplaced. Raving against capitalism is certainly unacceptable for a conservative.
I’m not raving against capitalism. I’m raving against a purposeful move to hand over 100 years of technology and manufacturing knowledge to our enemies. We did not do that with the USSR, and it is no more deserved that we do so to China to bring them out of their third world hellhole. Now they are wealthy communists, much more effectively working against our interests, much more effectively creating alliances through bribery to unsavory despots, and much more effectively wielding their new found clout in the UN and on the world stage.
And much more effectively positioning a regime of espionage.
I am with you 100%. This is yet another thing I hold against the sitting president.
(Please forgive me for my mistake: it was the previous poster who was ravbing against free markets, so my words were misdirected)
Correctly? History is replete with capitalism succumbing to despots. Now that the Chinese have acquired more wealth mainly for the elite, they are beating the crap out of non Chinese and Catholic populations ever more vigorously. The Chinese are not practicing capitalism. They are stealing and using western means of production. The elites in both the Chinese and Western enterprises they do business with make most of the money. They are supported by management which is paid well for their productivity. Stalin paid his brutes well to get them to keep the masses in line.
How on earth is this Bush's doing? It was Nixon that opened trade with China, and Bill Clinton gave the Chinese unlimited access in exchange for campaign contributions.
TQ, Your definition of free trade and/or a free market is one that has an international contract/agreement/treaty approved by the World Bank/Court/Organization/Center.
You want something that governments control. I believe Will88 is more like I am. I don’t want government anywhere close to my trades except to verify that the safety and consumption laws are being met.
I don’t want a foreign court comprised of six foreign ministers making a determination that the other guy has a right to ship his product into America because the international contract/agreement/treaty says so on Page 1969, Section 64, Chapter 88, line 14b and that .009% lead is acceptable because the United Nations declared it to be in 1953.
That, and buying into companies that have access to the technology. And buying into companies that can get access to military surplus, some of which is "oops" misidentified as surplus when it is, in fact, very current. And hiring specialists as consultants. That kind of thing was all the rage during the nineties.
“You are arguing against a straw man. Nobody has ever said that capitalism and democracy are the same thing. Nobody has ever said that free markets will magically transform China into a democracy. What people said, correctly, is that economic is one kind of freedom, and when people exercise more freedoms, they tend to seek even more. So free markets ARE a stimulus for democracy.”
Oh yes it has been said that capitalism and free markets would turn China into a democracy. It was said all during the debate on whether to grant MFN status, a debate that spanned a decade or so of the late ‘80s and ‘90s.
You drivel about socialism isn’t worth responding to, but you do put yourself squarely into the corner of the free trader ideologues and free market ideologues who can’t, or refuse to see beyond the limitation of the theories some economics professor crammed into their heads in college.
National security and human rights were once considerations in our trade policies until the ideologues and purists becom too influential.
“It’s a bit of a misconception: all those places combined would not be 1/10th of China in size.”
That’s true, but little more than one-tenth of the Chinese are actually benefiting significantly in their economic growth. It’s still largely an agrarian society, with the growth limited to specific areas.
No, the real ‘huge advantage’ the Chinese have is the US has made all decisions related to China policy based corporate interests and campaign contributions. We’ve stupidly opened all our institutions to the Chinese and, surprise, they’re taking advantage of that open access to spy and steal all that they can.
As far as spying is concerned, we are a moving target. Letting them do a certain amount of spying is a backhanded way to Westernize the Chinese. Ending up doing what Americans do, rather than inventing your own answers helps you become more like Americans.
So long as we keep innovating and keep our best secrets out of harm’s reach, we should be OK. That will take, though, greater vigilance than we have already used.
Correctly? History is replete with capitalism succumbing to despots.
It's like saying that sleep has capitulated to hunger --- doesn't make much sense, does it?
A said that free markets are a factor that stimulates movement towards freedom. I also said that it does not guarantee it. Further, capitalism is a system of decentralized property rights held by individuals. By itself it has nothing to do with democracy.
Now that the Chinese have acquired more wealth mainly for the elite,
Just as in Russia, which also does not have developed capitalism, the increase in prosperity of the middle class is undeniable.
The Chinese are not practicing capitalism. They are stealing and using western means of production.
Again, theft from foreigners, militarism, lack of democracy are different characteristics of society.
The elites in both the Chinese and Western enterprises they do business with make most of the money.
This is class warfare straight from Marx and Lenin.
They are supported by management which is paid well for their productivity. Stalin paid his brutes well to get them to keep the masses in line.
This is factually incorrect. Aside from a few extra foodstuffs and other perks, Stalin did not pay much to his henchmen: them too he held in line by terror and propaganda. And propaganda was focused against foreigners and... capitalists. The second part has some similarities with your attitude towards institutions of capitalism.
Could you explain, from the beginning, how is your post related to my previous one?
Someone else's failures do not excuse his.
All the free traders and free marketers assured us time and again, and particularly when China was given most favored nation status with no human rights strings attached, that the magic of free markets and capitalism would transform the Chinese into freedom loving democrats.
I merely pointed out that (i) free markets and democracy are different aspects of society, and (ii) Will argued against a straw man, i.e, falsely attributed something to free-market proponents and than raved against that.
Like you I want MY government, by using force if necessary, enforce MY property rights. I want the government, however, and most certainly "world" organizations, to stay out of how I exchange my property rights with others.
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