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Bush looks into terror list for Venezuela
The Miami Herald ^ | March 10, 2008 | PABLO BACHELET

Posted on 03/10/2008 11:52:35 AM PDT by King of Florida

WASHINGTON -- A senior government official has confirmed that the Bush administration has asked its lawyers to look into what gets a country on the U.S. list of state sponsors of terrorism. The inquiry follows allegations that Venezuelan President Hugo Chávez's links with Colombia's FARC guerrillas have been much deeper than previously believed.

The investigation is the first step in a process that could see Venezuela join North Korea, Cuba, Sudan, Syria and Iran as countries that have been designated by the State Department as supporters of terrorism.

U.S. laws give leeway to what economic activity is subject to sanctions, but in the extreme, U.S. and many foreign businesses would be forced to sever links with one of the world's largest producers of oil, severely affecting Venezuela's oil trade.

The legal review comes after Colombia captured four computers belonging to a FARC guerrilla leader in a March 1 raid. The documents suggest the Venezuelan government was in the process of providing $300 million in assistance to the Revolutionary Armed Forces of Colombia, or FARC, which U.S. and Colombian officials call a "narco-terrorist" group but Chávez considers a legitimate insurgency.

(Excerpt) Read more at miamiherald.com ...


TOPICS: Foreign Affairs
KEYWORDS: bush; chavez; colombia; farc; gwot; latinamerica; venezuela
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If Hugo has given $300M to FARC, no doubt he HAS to be on the list.
1 posted on 03/10/2008 11:52:36 AM PDT by King of Florida
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To: King of Florida
Bush looks into terror list for Venezuela

Try looking under 'V'

Then Google 'Monroe Doctrine.'

2 posted on 03/10/2008 11:54:13 AM PDT by fweingart (Obama-Clinton (A real dream team!))
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To: King of Florida
Hugo's new ride.


3 posted on 03/10/2008 12:01:59 PM PDT by ladtx ( "Never miss a good chance to shut up." - - Will Rogers)
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To: King of Florida

He should then find out if we can buy oil from state sponsors of terrorism. I’d love to see Hugo thrown on that list, but the economic repercussions should be taken into account.


4 posted on 03/10/2008 12:06:03 PM PDT by RabidBartender
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To: fweingart

How does the Monroe Doctrine apply here? That was basically a warning to European powers to cease colonization of the Americas.


5 posted on 03/10/2008 12:18:09 PM PDT by Slapshot68
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To: King of Florida
Putting Venezuela on the list of terrorists states based on a laptop is not a good idea. Not only will Europe and other allies not go along with it, it is not in our best interests, either.

It is enough of a stretch to call FARC a terrorist organization, thereby making the designation a political one and not a functional one, but then expanding it to a large country like Venezuela, is even more of a stretch.

To put it bluntly, the US foreign policy towards South America sucks in general. Our farm subsidizes have been especially devastating for South American governments. By selling our crops for under what it costs to produce them (cotton, wheat) and putting high import duties on imports from them (54 cents per gallon on Brazilian ethanol), half the farmers in South America would starve if they did not grow coca.
6 posted on 03/10/2008 12:31:07 PM PDT by microgood
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To: microgood

“It is enough of a stretch to call FARC a terrorist organization”

So widespread political murder, kidnapping, and drug-running doesn’t make an organization “terrorist”? What do you think does qualify?


7 posted on 03/10/2008 1:19:55 PM PDT by Timothy
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To: microgood

Without disputing your main point, it needs to be said that Venezuela’s relations with FARC are not based on a captured laptop.

He has been openly allied with them since his days as a cashiered colonel. And since the day he took office, he has been their open supporter. They have captured Venezuelan-supplied weapons again and again, and FARC uses Venezuela as its safe zone. It is where it keeps its high value hostages. The whole charade of Chavez negotiating the release of hostages being held in Venezuela is, you have to admit, a bit much.

FARC leaders live openly in Caracas, carry Venezuelan passports with Venezuelan citizenship which allows them to come and go.

Chavez has often appeared with FARC members on stage with him, they are in his inner circle.

FARC has launched attacks from the Venezuelan side of the border, occasionally with Venezuelan air support. And the big move of 10 battalions to the border the other day covered the escape of FARC’s #1 to safety in Venezuela.

And, just to make sure you don’t miss the point, when FARC’s #2 was killed the other day, who squealed? Chavez, who took the whole thing very personal.


8 posted on 03/10/2008 1:34:09 PM PDT by marron
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To: Timothy
So widespread political murder, kidnapping, and drug-running doesn’t make an organization “terrorist”? What do you think does qualify?

Actually FARC has been around since the 60s and is basically a guerilla group fighting the current Colombian government. They do engage in kidnapping an murder and even hijacked a plane once but unless they want to call the right-wing paramilitaries Uribe is using to come after FARC terrorist organizations as well, it is just something being done for political reasons and not because these people are international terrorists.

If FARC overthrew Uribe and took over the government, and then a bunch of right-wing guerillas formed to fight the new government, who would be the terrorists? And it can't be the drug component since Uribe is involved in them as well (or at least the paramilitaries he sponsors.

Guerilla groups are as old as South America, and they always form in response to poor treatment by the military to civilians, regardless whether the rulers are right-wing dictators or left-wing communists.
9 posted on 03/10/2008 7:00:27 PM PDT by microgood
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To: marron
Without disputing your main point, it needs to be said that Venezuela’s relations with FARC are not based on a captured laptop.

Agreed, I think just think they are seeing an opportunity to advance the cause of making Chavez a terrorist due to this new evidence, especially since they have apparently not been able to do it before based on the evidence you presented.

Chavez is a total zero but to change a country from terrorist to not based on every election is not a good policy going forward. And although we frame South American foreign policy in this good versus evil paradigm, it really is not that simple and many SA countries have reasons not to like the US.
10 posted on 03/10/2008 7:07:33 PM PDT by microgood
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To: microgood
Actually FARC has been around since the 60s and is basically a guerilla group fighting the current Colombian government. They do engage in kidnapping an murder and even hijacked a plane once but unless they want to call the right-wing paramilitaries Uribe is using to come after FARC terrorist organizations as well, it is just something being done for political reasons and not because these people are international terrorists.

If FARC overthrew Uribe and took over the government, and then a bunch of right-wing guerillas formed to fight the new government, who would be the terrorists? And it can't be the drug component since Uribe is involved in them as well (or at least the paramilitaries he sponsors.

Are you a FARC sympathizer?

FARC has long since ceased to be a bona fide guerrilla movement. It claims to be a guerrilla group, and it appears you have bought that claim hook, line, and sinker.

While it used to be a guerrilla movement, it is now primarily an organization dealing in profits from the drug trade and kidnapping. Indeed, the Colombian Communist Party -- for which FARC was originally the military wing -- broke with it years ago for these very reasons.

FARC doesn't just engage in kidnapping and murder -- such things are its stock and trade, among other undeniably terrorist activities. I don't see how one can call launching mortars into poor neighborhoods of Bogota, as happened prior to Uribe's inauguration in 2002, just "murder." Nor would I call the bombings of the Bogota Beer Company bar or the El Nogales nightclub just "murder." These are acts of terrorism, plain and simple.

Even if one somehow could justify these acts -- and I don't know anyone short of wild-eyed radicals who could -- FARC offers no plausible alternative system of governance. Most important, it has virtually no support whatsoever among the Colombian population. For all of Uribe's supposed ties to the paras, he has enjoyed a 70%-80% approval rating throughout his seven-plus years as president. That's remarkable. FARC has no legitimacy whatsoever.

Your claims that Uribe is involved in the drug trade are ridiculous. There have been accusations of some nebulous ties to the now defunct Medellin cartel and the paras, but these actually consisted of little more than expressions of support for Uribe from paras. The ostensible ties to the defunct cartel have been debunked as well.

You spout FARC talking points pretty well. In fact, you talk just like one of the Chavez lackeys at DU. What are you doing here?

11 posted on 03/11/2008 4:05:35 AM PDT by King of Florida (A little government and a little luck are necessary in life, but only a fool trusts either of them.)
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To: wideawake

*ping*


12 posted on 03/11/2008 4:07:06 AM PDT by King of Florida (A little government and a little luck are necessary in life, but only a fool trusts either of them.)
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To: King of Florida

What, Bush hasn’t done this already? This is OBVIOUS. If a nobody sitting at a computer can figure it out, why is the US President just now getting around to it?

Chavez should have been assumd a terrorist years ago!


13 posted on 03/11/2008 4:11:47 AM PDT by ovrtaxt (Member of the irate, tireless minority, keen on setting brushfires of freedom in the minds of men.)
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To: King of Florida

Bush made up the list to begin with, didn’t he? Well just put them on it and be done with it.


14 posted on 03/11/2008 4:17:20 AM PDT by Non-Sequitur (Save Fredericksburg. Support CVBT.)
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To: ovrtaxt

My understanding is that this is essentially an administrative action by the Department of State. Bush has to make some sort of declaration or certification that is published in the Federal Register, and Condi has to certify the addition of Venezuela to the list 45 days later.


15 posted on 03/11/2008 5:07:01 AM PDT by King of Florida (A little government and a little luck are necessary in life, but only a fool trusts either of them.)
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To: microgood
Actually FARC has been around since the 60s and is basically a guerilla group fighting the current Colombian government.

Longer than that actually.

They do engage in kidnapping an murder and even hijacked a plane once

In other words, they are terrorists, and you are a terrorist apologist.

unless they want to call the right-wing paramilitaries Uribe is using to come after FARC terrorist organizations as well

Why would you call anti-terror groups terrorists? Are the US Marines in Baghdad terrorists? Are the private military contractors in Kabul terrorists?

it is just something being done for political reasons and not because these people are international terrorists

They're not internatuional terrorists - except that they regularly cross into Venezuela, Panama and Ecuador, except that they have links to Fatah, the IRA, the ETA, the Shining Path, and other terror groups, etc., etc.

If FARC overthrew Uribe and took over the government, and then a bunch of right-wing guerillas formed to fight the new government, who would be the terrorists?

The terrorists would be the ones who overthrew a constitutionally-elected government.

And it can't be the drug component since Uribe is involved in them as well (or at least the paramilitaries he sponsors.

Alvaro Uribe is not involved in the drugb trade at any level. If you are going to lies about him, you should probably come up with something plausible.

Guerilla groups are as old as South America, and they always form in response to poor treatment by the military to civilians

No, terrorism is not a response to "poor treatment" - it is a strategy used by power-hungry fanatics who know that they cannot win elections fairly.

16 posted on 03/11/2008 5:19:13 AM PDT by wideawake (Why is it that those who call themselves Constitutionalists know the least about the Constitution?)
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To: Slapshot68
It has also been applied to South and Central American countries that were becoming infested with communism, along with other evil influences.

The Monroe Doctrine staked out this hemisphere as our sphere of influence and anything untoward occuring therein that affected our nation was cause for action.

17 posted on 03/11/2008 7:33:45 AM PDT by fweingart (Obama-Clinton (A real dream team!))
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To: King of Florida
Are you a FARC sympathizer?

No way. I just think labelling them a terrorist group like Al Queda cheapens the word just like calling a 17 year old that has sex with a 16 year old in the same category as a sick child molestor. Sure they are evil people, but they are not an international threat nor in the same league as real international terrorists.

Your claims that Uribe is involved in the drug trade are ridiculous. There have been accusations of some nebulous ties to the now defunct Medellin cartel and the paras, but these actually consisted of little more than expressions of support for Uribe from paras. The ostensible ties to the defunct cartel have been debunked as well.

Sure, Uribe is a white knight in a sea of evil. Believe what you want, but the reason we are there now is because of oil, not drugs as our State Department wants you to believe.

You spout FARC talking points pretty well. In fact, you talk just like one of the Chavez lackeys at DU. What are you doing here?

Look, if you want to believe America is the white knight sleuthing dragons in South America go ahead. Our South American policy has sucked for 250 years and still sucks. We have no business being involved in an internal conflict in Colombia and every time we have done something like this it has backfired. Plan Colombia was started by a DUer, Bill Clinton himself.

And when it is all over, the US will look like the idiots we are. Just because we are America does not mean every thing we do is automatically right. And the less money we spend sticking our nose in other people's business, the later we will go bankrupt.

Are you really so sure we did not create Chavez with our invasive and dictatorial South America policies? After all, our newest political hammer for South America is certifying they are compliant in the drug war. It has turned from a drug fighting tool into a foreign policy tool.

You big government conservatives believe it is our job is to dictate to the world how they must comply with our mandates. I, on the other hand, am a traditional conservative along the lines of Buckley.
18 posted on 03/11/2008 8:08:57 AM PDT by microgood
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To: wideawake
In other words, they are terrorists, and you are a terrorist apologist.

Calling FARC terrorists cheapens the term. Terrorists have lately come to mean anybody that we do not like. The more people we call terrorists, the less effective we will be in fighting the real ones.

In other words, they are terrorists, and you are a terrorist apologist.

Chavez is a terrorist. Drug smuggling Mexicans are terrorists. Illegal aliens that plant pot in our national forests are terrorists (according to John Walters of ONDCP). See how that works? Oh, yes, and I am a terrorist sympathizer because I think Plan Columbia sucks. See, we can now add 4 or 5 more groups to the terror lists. Maybe the militia movement guarding the border since the Feds won't are terrorists (currently they are just vigilantes).

Why would you call anti-terror groups terrorists?

My point here is that if a guerilla group forms under a right wing dictatorship we call them terrorists and if they form under a left wing dictatorship we call them anti terrorists. And yet right wing dictators are just as brutal and evil as left wing ones, at least in South America.

Alvaro Uribe is not involved in the drugb trade at any level. If you are going to lies about him, you should probably come up with something plausible.

That is something really hard to determine. I think it is naive to think he is not, although I think he has been good for Colombia. But as soon as our money dries up, and it will, things will go back to the way they were.

No, terrorism is not a response to "poor treatment" - it is a strategy used by power-hungry fanatics who know that they cannot win elections fairly. .

FARC came about because of excesses of the military. Noone denies that. We just disagree about what they have morphed into. And I still believe they are more of a guerilla group more than a terrorist group. But since we throw the word terrorist around like candy these days to demonize our political appointmest.

But I do agree with one aspect of your definition. The part "it is a strategy used by power-hungry fanatics who know that they cannot win elections fairly" certainly also applies to lawyers and the Democratic party.
19 posted on 03/11/2008 8:30:25 AM PDT by microgood
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To: microgood
Calling FARC terrorists cheapens the term.

Not at all. They kidnap and murder noncombatant civilians in pursuit of ideological goals. That's the definition of terrorism.

If FARC are not terrorists, then the ETA are not terrorists or the IRA either.

Chavez is a terrorist. Drug smuggling Mexicans are terrorists. Illegal aliens that plant pot in our national forests are terrorists (according to John Walters of ONDCP). See how that works?

Since the US State Department does not designate any of the above as terrorists, but it does designate FARC as terrorists I'm not sure what your point is, exactly.

Oh, yes, and I am a terrorist sympathizer because I think Plan Columbia sucks.

No, you are an apologist for terrorism because you are defending FARC against the accurate charge of terrorism.

My point here is that if a guerilla group forms under a right wing dictatorship we call them terrorists and if they form under a left wing dictatorship we call them anti terrorists.

Only if one assumes that the methods and tactics of The Shining Path and the methods and tactics of the Contras are identical.

However, that would be a false assumption.

And yet right wing dictators are just as brutal and evil as left wing ones, at least in South America.

Another false assumption. Under the Batista regime for seven years, no political prisoners were executed. Within three years of seizing power Castro had executed 14,000 political prisoners.

The most brutal rightist dictator, measured by the hysterics he causes among leftists, in South America was Pinochet.

His regime executed a few hundred people, many of whom were foreign communist agents, in the first year of his rule.

To those who can count, it is clear which side is more "brutal."

That is something really hard to determine.

Translation: you do not have a shred of evidence concerning your allegations against Uribe, but you will smear him just the same.

FARC came about because of excesses of the military. Noone denies that.

Plenty of people deny that, because it is a lie.

FARC was founded by a well-to-do Stalinist ideologue by the name of Manuel Marulanda.

Marulanda took advantage of the riots that followed in the wake of the assassination of Jorge Gaitan to found a violent guerrilla faction - a guerrilla faction of the kind that the Soviet Union was encouraging and funding throughout the world.

When he and Jacobo Arenas - the head of the Khruschev-approved Colombian Communist Party - joined forces, they renamed their combined organization FARC.

And I still believe they are more of a guerilla group more than a terrorist group.

A guerrilla group, if it is to be distinguished from a terrorist group, targets only members of the government's armed forces and police forces in the field.

If the group spends most of its time and energy in kidnapping and killing civilians, then it is a terrorist group like FARC.

20 posted on 03/11/2008 8:55:41 AM PDT by wideawake (Why is it that those who call themselves Constitutionalists know the least about the Constitution?)
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