Posted on 02/29/2008 12:58:25 PM PST by Rebeleye
The nanny state has to look out for people who are too intellectually dull to think of a good vanity plate.
‘That flag represents a heritage of treason, bigotry, hostility, division and an overall ugly time in American history.
One could say the same thing about the American flag...
Of course they would be wrong. That you Michelle?
They would be very wrong. My point is this. Just because both of those flags flew during during periods of violence and unrest in our country, doesn’t mean that’s what they stand for or that’s what they signify. They stand for something completely different and SO much more.
Read some of my other posts. I’m clearly NOT Michelle.
The Federal flag flew over all these institutions of treason, bigotry, hostility and division.
‘In early 1861, the full government of the United States endorsed the legitimacy of slave ownership. In January of 1861, the Mayor of New York suggested secession from the Federal government. In April of 1861, the Federal government sent secret naval squadrons to Charleston and Florida to fight their way into the ports.
The Federal flag flew over all these institutions of treason, bigotry, hostility and division.’
And in April 1865 it flew in Appomatax. Save it Mrs Obama.
BTTT
I grew up being told by Jessie Jackson that my forefathers were racist but those old Great Great Grandfathers can not hold a candle when it comes to racism and hate coming from both camps of the far left and elitists liberal Democrats.
Just the lowly opinion of a red state wannabe.
1. ‘In early 1861, the full government of the United States endorsed the legitimacy of slave ownership. In January of 1861, the Mayor of New York suggested secession from the Federal government. In April of 1861, the Federal government sent secret naval squadrons to Charleston and Florida to fight their way into the ports.
The Federal flag flew over all these institutions of treason, bigotry, hostility and division.’
2. ‘Pointing at symbols and making absolute statements is the pastime of argument baiters.’
I wonder how you square your second statement above with the first. By ignoring the rest of our history to focus on these few seems to be “the pastime of argument baiters.”
‘The “might makes right” fallacy in logic does not change the facts.’
Neither does ignoring that in the end, at least in the time of your examples, determination, perserverance, sacrifice and might did make right.
The history of this country from the time of the first settlers until today is full of instances of less than stellar humanity on the part of its citizens.
Overshadowing those failings, IMO, are the stellar acts of this country that show courage, sacrifice of lives and treasure, perserverance against the forces of evil in the world that personify the goodness that is this country. The Flag as a symbol of freedom to the world and rightly so. Those who see it otherwise are jealous and petty purveyors of despair.
Our system of gov’t is neither perfect nor is our citizenry’s exercise of it perfect. It is however, the best thing currently going in this world. We should be thanking God that we live in it.
The traits you offer (perseverance, sacrifice and might) were common among the people of the war. One side won, and the other surrendered.
Launching off on your concept of the Flag (American) being a symbol to the world is fine, but is incongruent with the facts presented.
Rebeleye started the discussion with his bigoted statements, rebuffed by Hoffer Road. What you offer is nice sounding but does not reflect either the actions of the time or Rebeleye’s opinion. Nor the reality of the loss of the liberties originally expressed in the Bill of Rights.
Might did not make our system any “righter” after the deaths of 640,000 people.
But many continue to rationalize that horror.......like you.
‘But many continue to rationalize that horror’
I don’t rationalize the horror. It was a shame that the root causes had to be addressed via war. I don’t cringe at the result.
‘Might did not make our system any “righter” after the deaths of 640,000 people.’
If conserving the Union was the goal, which it was IMO, it was “righter”
I suspect we will have to disagree on this.
I think the word you meant was preserving, and that was the singular goal of Lincoln and the banking/shipping/manufacturing/insurance and trading organizations. “Preserving” meant continuing the control of the flow of cotton which produced 95% of the revenue of the US Treasury.
As I said, might did not make right. There was nothing noble about the actions of the Union army and its president.
As I said:
‘I suspect we will have to disagree on this.’
I was right.
“It was a shame that the root causes had to be addressed via war”.
Here is the error in your education.
‘Here is the error in your education’
My education is fine, perhaps you mean my indoctrination. Since I cannot recognize you as an authority, my disagreement with you on this point can only be seen as uneducated by you or others with your point of view.
Let’s test that notion.
Here for your curiosity, interest, and perhaps a little fun:
Antebellum America Historical Literacy Test
1. Just before the Revolutionary War began, the city of Charleston, SC had the greatest population of slaves in the colonies.. The city that had the next largest population of slaves was:
a. Mobile
b. New Orleans
c. New York
2. The first building at this University was built with slave labor:
a. College of Charleston
b. Brown University
c. William and Mary
3. South Carolina voted to end the importation of slaves into the state in:
a. 1787
b. 1861
c. 1866
4. In 1858 this was said, “There is a physical difference between whites and blacks that prohibits social and political equality.” Who said it?
a. Jefferson Davis
b. Robert E. Lee
c. Abraham Lincoln
5. Prior to the war, the state that transported more slaves than any other state was
a. South Carolina
b. Maryland
c. Rhode Island
6. The flag of the Confederacy flew over slaves ships:
a. In the Caribbean
b. Throughout the Eastern seaboard
c. Nowhere
7. In January of 1861, upon hearing the news that several Southern states had seceded from the Union, the Mayor of this town suggested that they also secede;
a. New York
b. Dallas
c. Nashville
8. In April of 1861, just hours before Confederate artillery began to fire on Fort Sumter, the Confederate Government, and the citizens of Charleston knew that United States Naval Warships were:
a. Waiting in New York harbor
b. Steaming for Charleston harbor
c. Lying outside and firing on a ship entering Charleston Harbor.
9. Before Lincoln had ordered the United States Navy to Charleston, he had been advised by most in his cabinet and key politicians from Virginia to not send warships. When pressed why he was doing so, he said to one:
a. “What would happen to the Negroes?”
b. “The Europeans will invade us”.
c. “What would become of my tariff?”
10. At the time that Abraham Lincoln first took office in 1861, he stated in his first inaugural speech that he supported an Amendment to the United States Constitution that
a. Would make slavery illegal in all the states
b. Would make slavery legal in all the states
c. Would free all slaves
11. In 1861, the United States Congress stated that the War Between the States
a. Was being waged to end slavery
b. Was not being waged to end slavery
c. Was being waged to ensure equality
12. In 1863, the Emancipation Proclamation freed slaves in
a. The South
b. The North
c. All the states Try this from memory. If you do not know the answer outright, then guess. But mark down that answer as a guess. That will be interesting information.
Rec’vd your test @ 1620 MST 5 Mar
My answers:
1. New York
2. Brown U
3. 1787
4. Lincoln
5. Rhode Island
6. Nowhere
7. New York
8. C.
9. C
10. B
11. B
12. A
Apparently the time on FR says 8:30:28 AM PST on 3/5/08. I can’t account for that, but am going off my computer time
Re: question 3. What you neglect to mention, Pea, was that it wasn't a ban on slave imports but only a two year suspension. Or that the most vocal supporters of the slave trade at the Constitutional convention was Charles Pinkney.
Re: question 6. Not entirely true. There is evidence that some slaves were brought in from Cuba on blockade runners. And an article in a recent edition of North & South magazine dealing with confederate privateers detailed two instances where black crewmen on Northern ships that were captured were left onboard when the ships were sent back to the confederacy, the intent being to sell them into slavery upon arrival. The only reason those two instances are mentioned is that in both cases the black crewman overpowered the prize crew and rescued the ship. It's probable that there were other cases where the ship did make it to the confederacy and the crewmen were sold.
Re: question 7. You should also mention that Mayor Fernando Wood's suggestion was so popular he was promptly voted out of office in the next election.
Re: question 9. Be fair, Pea. That statment, possibly apocryphal, has been attributed to Lincoln by different sources but none of them that I'm aware of indicate he said it to his cabinet.
You now need to square up with your denial that “That flag represents a heritage of treason, bigotry, hostility.”
The Republican party of 1860-61 and Lincoln were guilty of bigotry, hostility and treason to the Constitution by attacking Charleston harbor.
Be a big boy and admit that the Confederate flag represents Independence, despite its misuse by various chaos groups.
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