Evangelicals Against Mitt

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“Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.” Acts: 2:27

Peter was quoting Psalm 16:10 where David had spoken of the hope that was in him for salvation because of Jesus...

For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.Thou wilt show me the path of life. In thy presence is fullnes of joy, at the right hand there are pleasues for evermore Psalm 14:10, 11

This was written hundreds of years before the Word of God, who was with God, and who was God, became flesh and dwelt among us, Jesus ...John 1:1-5, 14

Until then there was Hell and the Bosom of Abraham, also a part of Hell..

After Jesus died on the cross and shed His blood to save us and rose again, and now is sitting on the right hand of God the Father, people either go to Heaven or Hell

There was no Heaven then during David’s time...but David knew that Jeus would come and save him..and he was looking towards that time and knew Jesus was coming..just as Abraham knew Jesus was coming and looked for ward to His coming...they looked towards the cross...and the coming Messiah...they both knew that when Jesus came they would get out of Hell and go to Heaven to be with Jesus..

The power of God was so strong when Jesus rose again that the dead saints arose and came out of their graves and walked about the city...Matthew 27:52, 53 so you are correct in pointing out what David said about himself, that he would not stay in Hell

The dead saints arising when Jesus did proves that scripture, but it is all over now...that was for people who died before Jesus rose from the dead...but that is not for us today....Jesus has come and died for us and all we have to do is believe on Him and be saved and go to heaven or chose not to believe and be damned and go to Hell... Mark 16:16

Now we live in another dispensation than David and so we can look back to the cross and the finished work of Jesus..knowing that if we beieve we shall be saved and go to Heaven and if we do not believe we shall not be saved but be damned and we shall go to Hell when we die...Mark 16:16

“You have done precisely what you regularly accuse Mormons of doing - you have refused to provide a clear answer to a simple question ...” That’s simply a fabrication by you, perhaps in your deep seated need to ‘win’ against opposition to the hereies in Mormonism. And that’s all you deserve. Your game of playing dumb, pretending that clear explanation is not clear, these are the tools demonic endless disputation employ. You will have to find someone else to take pity on you now. I’m done when you revert to childish gaming.

Try this one:

A beaten wife stands at the door while her husband looms threateningly behind her.

“I am okay, officer.....honest,” she says

Thenslowly she closes the door and turns to face her abuser, thinking there is nothing better for her “out there.”

Well, as you continue to shotgun, I'll focus on the more important points.

Um, are you familiar with the concept of subsets and supersets?

However, mormonism is uniformly rejected as a part of the superset just as Smith rejected Christianity.

It was one culmination, there have been several, but since it resulted in the church affirming a mistake it was a significant change in doctrine. I know you believe the doctrine didn't change, and that's really quaint, but not backed up by the facts.

The councils that eventually resulted it the Nicean creed did not result in a mistaken change in doctrine. That doctrine had been in place from Christ. It is only mistaken in your mind (not backed up by facts) because you apriori reject it from the beginning and twist verses past their breaking point to make your 'facts'.

Bruce R McConkie is a distant cousin of mine, and his works were not perfect neither are mine there is only one who was perfect in all his works, Jesus.

So, as an apostle of lds and author of a significant work authorized by the lds, is 'Mormon Doctrine' a proper reference for us gentiles to look at to understand mormon doctrine?

Jesus was indeed a member of the God head form before time itself was created, for he was the creator of it.

Sorry, this doesn't jib with standard eternal progression doctrine. Adam had 'gods' procreate him to begin the process, as Jesus' father, as a spirit personage, Jesus would have had to wait until the deification process of Adam had finished in order for Adam to create Jesus. To say he was an exception to the rule is a convenient cop-out. And eternal progression is a fundamental doctrine of lds isn't it.

Anyone who accepts the atonement has already accepted the principle of vicarious work, so such a concept it should not seem strange to a Christian.

You really don't know Christian doctrine very well do you. Christ's sacrifice on the cross was vicarious because He was the only one who could do it. Paul (and other writers of the NT) makes it very clear that anything we do cannot equal it or supplement it. There is nothing in the Bible to indicate that Christians gain for post death ordinances.

You have this wrong, it's simply not our doctrine that you are spouting here, it's your own ignorance of that Doctrine that you are promoting here.

Fundamental basic process:
Spirit person begotten in the spirit realm by a god and goddess (who knows where the first god and goddess came from at this stage)
This spirit person is eventually born into flesh and blood on some planet, marries and does all the things right (here it would be your ordinances, etc - who knows what they are called on another planet), dies and eventually works their way to being a god over some unspecified period of time.
This new god procreates spirit children with a goddess/wife and cycle begins again.
Not hard to understand. However, when practical application is made regarding Jesus, you have to completely short circuit the model, let alone try to address the Holy Spirit (which is a god without a physical body).

Yeah, I covered this, Jesus himself gave an analogy of this oneness, if you don't want to accept his word but follow after your won interpretation, there is nothing I can do for you.

For one who is an 'avid student' of language, to say that this is just my 'interpretation' is a little less than honest. It is the greek construct and verbiage. There are other greek words and sentence structures that could have been used to support the lds claim, your problem is that they were not used. Your dismissal may work on the less informed but not me.

Lets see, Jesus was a documented heretic, blasphemer, who hung about with sinners, tax collectors and semi retired fishermen.

These actions were not criminal, Smith's behavior was. The blasphemy charge was false and trumped up.

He writes new scripture from thin air, and reinterprets old scripture freely in ways that are not approved by the Sanhedrin.

He was recognized by many in the Sanhedrin as a rabbi (teacher) and a little study of how rabbis (teachers) taught in those days he was well within norms. Though his alleged 'reinterpretation' of scripture was challenged, he was able to defend them and prove that his teachings were in fact the proper interpretation. What was not approved was how he countered the Pharisaical laws which were added upon the Torah and as such were extra-biblical. In Smith's case, he has come up with writings that have strong internal as well as external conflicts and contradictions that it has apologists like you working overtime.

Jesus is a disrupter of the peace and may be plotting to rebel against the Romans, and you know what they do to states that rebel! I heard he thinks he's God, if we play our cards right we may be able to get him to say tat in open court!

Danger Will Robinson, DU going off the deep end.

Did you know that Urim and Thummim are Biblical?

Yes, do you know what context they are components of the priest's breastplate and not glasses. To justify something that Smith could have easily pulled out of the OT as real, the rest of his story needs credibility. LDS historian Andrew Jensen reported a speech given by Martin Harris in Salt Lake City on Sunday, September 4, 1870: He [Martin Harris] related an incident which occurred during the time that he wrote that portion of the translation of the Book of Mormon which he was favored to write direct from the mouth of the Prophet Joseph Smith, and said that the Prophet possessed a seer stone, by which he was enabled to translate as well as from the Urim and Thummim, and for convenience he then used the seer stone. . . .(Historical Record, by Andrew Jensen, vol. 7, p. 216). So an ordinary rock is equivalent to or better than the mythical spectacles of the Urim and Thummim. Lesssee, seer stone - conviction of swindle using a 'peep stone'. Walk like a duck, quacks like a duck......

can you show me the original text of say revelations,you know the parchment written upon by John the Beloved?

You are ignorant of critical methods of evaluating of ancient documents. Can I show you the original MS by John (or his scribe to whom he may have dictated?) no. Modern textural critical analysis of the thousands of MS of both OT and NT show that they have been accurately transmitted by and large to us, that anything that is missing now is insignificant.
However you cannot supply the plates or any thing that even remotely resembles and is recognized as 'reformed egyptian hieroglyphics'. Absent the plates, what miracle was wrought on the most perfect book in the world to justify the thousands of changes in the bom? Oh you do have that wonderful papyrus that the was used for the POGP, unfortunately Smith's translation has been shown to be totally a fraud.

and your theology has twisted God into an incomprehensible being when we are commanded to know him.

Uhhhh, which 'god' of your polytheistic cult are you referring to now?

You see how easy this is? All your arguments and your "Reasoning" is easily reversed if I just assume that I am orthodox and you are the upstart, thus it is nothing but demagoguery.

Demagogue, thy name is DelphiUser.

Are they? The churches official abbreviation is LDS. They would love to use that, but people keep asking us if we are Mormons, so here we are.

How do you find the lds website - type in www.mormon.org.

U Said: There was no Heaven then during David’s time...

I could argue that there was indeed a heaven, but Man just did not have access to it, but that would be a pretty moot point.

U Said: but David knew that Jesus would come and save him..and he was looking towards that time and knew Jesus was coming..just as Abraham knew Jesus was coming and looked for ward to His coming...they looked towards the cross... and the coming Messiah...they both knew that when Jesus came they would get out of Hell and go to Heaven to be with Jesus..

Interesting, you do realize that Acts indeed all the Gospels were written after the fact, sometimes by, many decades, right?

U Said: The power of God was so strong when Jesus rose again that the dead saints arose and came out of their graves and walked about the city... Matthew 27:52, 53 so you are correct in pointing out what David said about himself, that he would not stay in Hell

The dead saints arising when Jesus did proves that scripture, but it is all over now...that was for people who died before Jesus rose from the dead...but that is not for us today....Jesus has come and died for us and all we have to do is believe on Him and be saved and go to heaven or chose not to believe and be damned and go to Hell... Mark 16:16

Now we live in another dispensation than David and so we can look back to the cross and the finished work of Jesus..knowing that if we believe we shall be saved and go to Heaven and if we do not believe we shall not be saved but be damned and we shall go to Hell when we die...Mark 16:16

Thank you for your perspective, it was very interesting.

You do realize that the Acts of the apostles was not written until after Jesus' resurrection, yet peter says " 29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulcher is with us unto this day." Acts 2:29 Mormons take this to mean that David is still in hell at this time and will still be released later, at the "Final Judgment" which Mormons do not believe has happened yet. Understand I am not arguing, I am just telling you what we believe. since I asked you, it's only fair. Mormons believe that David will never achieve the Highest degree of Glory because of his committing adultery and murder, but will not stay in hell because he repented for the rest of his life.

Personally, I am not worried because, my will requires that I be buried with one of these:

I can see it now:

Mother Goose - get out of hell free by jojobear99

(I hope you know this is humor...)

“The pentecostals believe in “holiness” living; they don’t believe “once saved, always saved”. They believe you need to actually keep the Commandments and try to be holy. They also believe that speaking in tongues is a manifestation of being saved.”
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No the Pentecostals dont believe that you have to speak in tongues to be saved...The Pentcostals believe the Bible ...The Pentecostals believe that speaking in tongues is an evidence that the believer has been Baptisted in the Holy Spirit..But you can be filled with the Holy Spirit and not chose to speak in tongues but why would you not??? .you dont have to speak in tongues but it sure helps to live a Christian life and not back slide or fall away from the faith, if you do...

But beloved remember ye the words which were spoken before of the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ, How they told you there should be mockers in the last time, who should walk after their own unGodly lusts. These be they who separate themselves, sensual, having not the Spirit, But ye, beloved, building up yourself on your most Holy faith, praying in the Holy Ghost, keep your selves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life..Jude 14-21

Jesus told us about the Holy Spirit’s job in our Christian lives and about speaking in tongues He said it was a sign that would follow after you believe, He never said it would be evidence...We have the ability to speak in other tongues but we dont have to.. Mark 16:17, It is a way of communicating with the Holy Spirit but He can speak to me in my earthly language, English, just as well John 16:5-15

Thanks for the nudge, sevenbak. Hope to see you around here again soon!

Thanks for the insight, SD. It seems this particular doctrine is not consistent even amongst traditional Christians. Perhaps they accuse each other of “demonic inspiration?”

Or is that particular epithet reserved for us Mormons, I wonder?

I do believe you’re missing the point, Nana. According to Mormon beliefs, there is no “tally” of good and evil that a person does. Continual repentance and humility before God are the key. If your heart is right before God - irregardless of your human foibles - then His Grace is extended to you now and in the hereafter.

By choice, this may be lost. But most who truly embrace a lifetime of following this path never depart from it. Either way, there is no “completion,” as you have put it.

~”Tantiboh, What do you think of the possibility matrix for Grace and works?”~

What do you mean?

If I can’t get clarification from you, a victory will do.

Mormons believe that David will never achieve the Highest degree of Glory because of his committing adultery and murder, but will not stay in hell because he repented for the rest of his life.
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There is only one heaven, one level...There are not high and low levels of Glory...the Glory is the Glory of the Lamb of God and there is only one Lamb

David is going to be at the throne of God worshipping the Lamb of God with the rest of us, dancing and singing and having a glorious time

David is listed in the Book of Hebrews as one whose faith pleased God and he is given to us as an example of how to have faith in God Hebrews 11:32
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Acts 2:29 Mormons take this to mean that David is still in hell at this time and will still be released later, at the “Final Judgment” which Mormons do not believe has happened yet. Understand I am not arguing, I am just telling you what we believe.
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I understand that you use this scripture and others to attempt to prove that if you dont work your way into Heaven you can always wait for a descendant to get water baptized in your name and get you out of Hell...although such belief is heresy..

You forgot the rest of the scriptures where Peter spoke about David knowing that Jesus would come and die for him and he believed what God had told him...Acts 2:30, 31

And looking at v31 ...just who is David talking about ???

He (David) seeing this before spoke of the resurrection of Christ, that His soul would not be left in Hell, neither his flesh did see coruption...

Now I had written earlier that it was Jesus that David was talking about and then I changed it because i knew you would argy bargy and pull out your mormon talking points when all the time not knowing what you were saying but just repeating whatever you were told to say...just like a puppet...

This is how it is...

Unless you repent and are saved BEFORE you die you will die and go to Hell and theres no getting into Heaven after that...David was talking about Jesus in v31 not you and not your long dead relatives. If they died unsaved they went to Hell and theres no getting into Heaven from there Luke 16:19-31 Abraham in “Abraham’s Bosom speaking to a man in Hell “...between us and you there is a great gulf fixed, so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot, neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence” Luke 16:26

All the way through that passage Act 2:14-36, whenever Peter quotes David, David is speaking about Jesus being in Hell not David himself...

David says.....

Because you wilt not leave my soul in Hell and neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption v27

He (David) seeing this before spoke of the resurrection of Christ, that His soul would not be left in Hell, neither his flesh did see coruption...v31

David is talking about Jesus , the fruit of his loins, his descendant, not David himself...David talks about his flesh not corrupting (rotting) but you claim David was STILL in his brave after 1,000 years so his flesh had to have rotted...Even Lazarus the brother of mary and Martha stunk and was rotting after only FOUR DAYS John 11:39 so we know that the bodies of men of God decomposed over time...

But Jesus never rotted in the grave and His flesh was not corrupted...and His soul was not left in Hell

So unless you are Jesus you are not coming out of Hell and neither are your long dead relatives...Do you have uncorruptable flesh ???

You either believe and repent now and get saved before you die and go to Heaven or you will be damned and go to hell...Mark 16:16

I do believe you’re missing the point, Nana. According to Mormon beliefs, there is no “tally” of good and evil that a person does. Continual repentance and humility before God are the key. If your heart is right before God - irregardless of your human foibles - then His Grace is extended to you now and in the hereafter.

By choice, this may be lost. But most who truly embrace a lifetime of following this path never depart from it. Either way, there is no “completion,” as you have put it.
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In answer I give you what you said to MHGinTN

To: MHGinTN
Ok, we’re getting closer, though the yes/no is still missing, so I want to make very sure I understand: You are saying that we are -not- expected to strive to obey the commandments of God in order to be saved?

You’ve danced around it in several different ways now, ranging from the philosophical to the cryptic, so I’m still uncertain and don’t want to risk you accusing me again of misrepresenting your beliefs; please answer with a yes or a no.

~”Are you under the mistaken impression that you, tantiboh, can keep the Commandments, all the Commandments?”~

I might point out your reading comprehension problem. From my post #242: “We make mistakes. The point is to recover from them and work to do better.” I might append that this is a lifelong process, and will not be completed while we are in this life.

260 posted on 01/11/2008 12:10:12 AM PST by tantiboh
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Sorry

PING to # 294

OK, do you deny that a creed came from the First council at Nicea?

No, I am saying that the Nicene Creed which is known to all Christians did not come from this council.

Somebody had better tell them The Roman Catholic church on Wikipedia, I have heard many "Catholics" call themselves "Roman Catholics", and it's not exactly an uncommon phrase, so I think you need to prove that one, good luck.

So, Wikipedia is an expert on religion now?

So there are Roman Catholics, but not Roman Catholic church, got it.

Is there a Mormon church or is it he Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints?

Continual repentance and humility before God are the key.

And according to Kimball, deceased LDS "prophet," in his book, THE MIRACLE OF FORGIVENESS, if you as a Mormon re-commit the same sin...you were NEVER repentant in the first place. Mormonism is the height of a spiritual treadmill going nowhere...exercising repentance that befits nothing even by the standards of their own "prophets."

You really don't know Christian doctrine very well do you. Christ's sacrifice on the cross was vicarious because He was the only one who could do it. Paul (and other writers of the NT) makes it very clear that anything we do cannot equal it or supplement it. There is nothing in the Bible to indicate that Christians gain for post death ordinances.

Psalm 49:7 bears this out: No mere man can ransom His brother. (It took a God-man like Jesus to do so!)

The accepted version of the Bible by the LDS Church is the King James Version. You err.

The Joseph Smith version of the Bible's copyright is held by the RLDS, but is available for purchase in most mormon bookstores and is the translation he specifically referred to. Were the copyright transferred to the lds, I'm pretty sure it would become the official version of the bible in short order.

***The Church grows by the Power of the Holy Ghost and no other way.***

***I guess some here thinks it is like a Spa membership!***

Many years ago I went to a testimony meeting of young LDS people. All said theu joined for the friendship, social programs and enjoyable times with other young people.
NONE joined because they felt they were lost and in need of salvation.
It was to them like, as you say, “ a spa membership.”

Ok, I will admit I was there for the same reason, but not as a member.