Elder Ballard responds to evangelical criticism

Deseret Morning News ^ | Dec. 6, 2007 | Jennifer Dobner

[fallingwater]

SALT LAKE CITY — When it comes to the big theological questions about God, Mormons and evangelical Christians will have to agree to disagree, a Mormon church authority said Wednesday.

"They're locked into the Nicene Creed . . . We're locked into the restoration and the experiences of Joseph Smith," said Elder M. Russell Ballard, a senior leader of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. "And that will undoubtedly be an issue until God himself comes."

[GLDNGUN]

I’m hoping you or someone else who seems to know a bit about the LDS church can answer my question, which is (in three parts): Do Mormons consider Catholics Christians? How about Protestants? Can non-Mormons go to Heaven? Thanks for any answers.

First, you have to ask "Do Mormons consider THEMSELVES to be Christians?" For many years, they wanted NOTHING to do with Christians and insisted they weren't Christians. Now, they want to be considered "mainstream" Christianity.

In answers to the questions you did ask, I would say that if you asked most Mormons "Do you consider Catholics, Protestants to be Christians?", they would say "yes".

As for non-Mormons going to heaven, that's "yes" and "no". Mormons actually believe in 3 heavens, with only faithful Mormons obtaining the highest heaven, in which they believe they'll become "gods" like their "Heavenly Father". Well, at least the men will become gods. The women will stay in the background and spit out spiritual children from their physical bodies. How does a physical body give "birth" to a spirit?

Anyway, "good" non-Mormons will get one of the lower heavens, but are merely "ministering servants" for those in the upper heaven. For a Mormon, anything less than the highest heaven is failure.

[verklaring]

"They're locked into the Nicene Creed . . . We're locked into the restoration and the experiences of Joseph Smith," said Elder M. Russell Ballard, a senior leader of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

Really? From the book of Mormon:

2 nephi 31:21 "...and now, behold, this is the doctrine of Christ, and the only and true doctrine of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, which is one God, without end. Amen"

Alma 11:44 "...arraigned before the bar of Christ the Son, and God the Father, and the Holy Spirit, which is one"eternal God..."

The quotations are consistent with the doctrine of Nicene Creed. later Joseph Smith would teach polytheism ( many gods) at the funeral one of the elders, in doing so he effectively changes the doctrine of God that they taught and rejects that of the book of Mormon. They believe not simply in evolving revelation through the apostle in Utah but effectively an evolving truth of God. Elder Ballards reply is a demonstration that the LDS does not in fact believe the book of Mormon.

[broncobilly]

Do Mormons consider Catholics Christians?
BB: Yes.

How about Protestants?
BB: Yes.

Can non-Mormons go to Heaven?
BB: It depends what you mean by heaven. According to Mormon belief, all will be resurrected. Joseph Smith and Sydney Rigdon said they saw the hereafter in vision together. According to this vision, Mormons think of the hereafter in terms of three degrees. (I believe it was Brigham Young who said even the lowest one was so pleasant some would probably take their own life to get there if they knew what it was like.)
That lowest degree is reserved for the unrighteous and evil of the world.
The next higher degree is reserved for the deceived, well intentioned, non-valient souls of the world.
The highest degree is reserved for the righteous of the earth who accept Christ’s atonement for their sins through baptism. Good works are involved, but it is the grace of Christ’s atonement that is the key transforming element. Only these will be able to withstand the glory and presence of God.
A portion of these will, through their desires, also enter into eternal marriage and have spiritual family increase through eternities.

I suppose, now that I have tried to answer your question, the answer will be mocked and I will be sorry for having answered you.

[broncobilly]

First, you have to ask “Do Mormons consider THEMSELVES to be Christians?” For many years, they wanted NOTHING to do with Christians and insisted they weren’t Christians. Now, they want to be considered “mainstream” Christianity.

---

Ridiculous. Mormons have always considered themselves Christian. Mormons want nothing to do with people who lie about them. They get along fine with the others.

[FastCoyote]

[Has he ever appeared to insert his religious beliefs into his business dealings as CEO, his running of the Olympics, his decisions as Governor of the State of Massachusetts? No, and if you think otherwise, give proof.]

I’ve given eight months worth of proof. I had a crooked Temple Mormon partner for 12 years. I work for a now atheist shunned ex-Mormon. My Senator is scheister Harry Reid and I have political ties to his former Mormon protege Dario Herrera (now in the slammer for bribes from a titty bar owner). I helped run a Mormons campaign for commissioner. I consulted a Mormon hydroponics farm that used magical water. I am consulting some Gentiles who are having their inheritance in effect stolen by the Mormon executor. Because of having been on the wrong side of Mormon deals time after time, I’ve read more Mormon history than most Mormons. I could go on and on.

In short, my views are based on ample experience. I don’t have bad feelings about most Mormons, but those in positions of power tend to confuse that power with God given rights that can become quite nasty. And what would your opinions be based on???

[RetiredArmyMajor]

The following quotes are from a website owned by “The Institute for Religious Research.” I can’t speak for its accuracy, but it appears to support your perspective.

I’m trying to get a handle on LDS doctrine. Can anyone speak to the accuracy of the following from that website?

“The Book of Mormon teaches, for example, that there is:

-only one God
-who is a Spirit, and
-is “unchangeable from all eternity to all eternity” (Alma 11:26-31; II Nephi 31:21; Mormon 9:9-11, 19; Moroni 7:22; 8:18).

Present-day Mormon doctrine, by contrast, teaches that:

-three separate gods are in charge of our planet
-two of these have bodies, were once men, and
-earned the right to become gods through faithful obedience to the Mormon gospel.”

At any rate, there is extraordinary information on that website:

http://www.irr.org/mit/Book-of-Mormon-Today.html

One thing about this controversy generated by Governor Romney’s candidacy . . . the American people are learning far more about Mormon doctrine and practices than ever before. The question is: Will this be good, bad or inconsequential for the LDS Church to have all this out there being discussed and debated outside the controlled missionary efforts of the church?

I have had several close LDS friends over the years. One of them was one of my closest friends. A man of exceptional character. But we never discussed Mormon doctrine, even though he held several leadership positions in his church.

[oswegodeee]

I could say the same for some Southern Baptists, who are in power now and have been in the past.

Question: Has Romney done any of the things you say the Mormon's whom you were associated with did?

[oswegodeee]

I too have some Mormon friends they are clean living, honest and trust-worthy folks. They have never spoken to me of their religion or even invited me to be a part of it. And they sure have a Wonderful, Beautiful, Glorious Choir, that I listen to every Christmas!

Many talented people come from the Mormons.. I think Romney is one of them..

I am a Southern Baptist and I know my church always had negatives to say of the Mormons and others. But hey! There is no mainstream religion that doesn't think they have all the right answers! IMHO!

[FastCoyote]

assume, as I do, that most Mormons are fine, but also that the ones who abuse the God-man concept are also drawn to power positions because of the very structure of the church. A good example would be Harry Reid, or look up the name Dario Herrera.

So it isn’t just whether Romney is configured this way, but his potential appointees. As far as whether Romney himself is a God-man, ask yourself whether there is anything he has failed at? You aren’t allowed to fail if you are on the God trail, and, for example, that’s why Mitt made Romneycare ‘work’ (even if it is doomed to failure).

Now ask yourself how brittle a person you’d be if you were on a never ending success path of perfection. Bless their imperfect souls, but guys like Truman, Ike, Johnson, Nixon, Reagan, were defined as much by their failures as by being perfect.

I mean, there is no way you could have a beer and talk football with Mitt. I think that in itself is scary enough.

[greyfoxx39]

You’ll just reinforce the image of red-necked southern crackers who are snake-handlers or speak in tongues while throwing your hands up in the air singing praise the lord at the top of your lungs. Like the image? Two can play the same game.

[greyfoxx39]

The highest degree is reserved for the righteous of the earth who accept Christ’s atonement for their sins through baptism.

BB, you neglected to add that The highest degree is reserved for the righteous of the earth who accept Christ’s atonement for their sins through baptism.....and confirmation into the COJCLDS, and following all the requirements to become "temple worthy" so that the righteous may take part in certain rituals.

In order to become "temple worthy" the following questions must be answered satisfactorily:

TEMPLE RECOMMEND QUESTIONS

1 Do you have faith in and a testimony of God the Eternal Father, His Son Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost?

2 Do you have a testimony of the Atonement of Christ and of His role as Savior and Redeemer?

3 Do you have a testimony of the restoration of the gospel in these the latter days?

4 Do you sustain the President of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints as the Prophet, Seer, and Revelator and as the only person on the earth who possesses and is authorized to exercise all priesthood keys? Do you sustain members of the First Presidency and the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles as prophets, seers, and revelators? Do you sustain the other General Authorities and local authorities of the Church?

5 Do you live the law of chastity?

6 Is there anything in your conduct relating to members of your family that is not in harmony with the teachings of the Church?

7 Do you support, affiliate with, or agree with any group or individual whose teachings or practices are contrary to or oppose those accepted by the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints?

8 Do you strive to keep the covenants you have made, to attend your sacrament and other meetings, and to keep your life in harmony with the laws and commandments of the gospel?

9 Are you honest in your dealings with your fellowmen?

10 Are you a full-tithe payer?

11 Do your keep the Word of Wisdom?

12 Do you have financial or other oblgations to a former spouse or children? If yes, are you current in meeting those obligations?

13 If you have previously received your temple endowment:

Do you keep the covenants that you made in the temple?
Do you wear the garment both night and day as instructed in the endowment and in accordance with the covenant you made in the temple?

14 Have there been any sins or misdeeds in your life that should have been resolved with priesthood authorities but have not been?

15 Do you consider yourself worthy to enter the Lord's house and participate in temple ordinances?

Good works are involved REQUIRED, but it is the grace of Christ’s atonement AND FOLLOWING REQUIREMENTS OF THE COJCLDS that ARE the key transforming element.

Only these will be able to withstand the glory and presence of God.

A portion of these will, through their desires, also enter into eternal marriage and have spiritual family increase through eternities.

I suppose, now that I have tried to answer your question, the answer will be mocked and I will be sorry for having answered you.

If you would NOT leave out a major requirement of the LDS religion for attaining exaltation, it would NOT be necessary to correct, not mock. Your post stated "The highest degree is reserved for the righteous of the earth who accept Christ’s atonement for their sins through baptism." as though that were ALL that is required.

[greyfoxx39]

I meant to ping you to post 31

[Colofornian]

You know, I’m starting to have a very bad taste in my mouth for Evangelicals. I’m trying not to paint with a broad brush here, but some of you Evangelicals, and you know who you are, are sick puppies, who twist the whole meaning of religiosity. It’s one thing to believe in your own beliefs, it’s entirely another to slam someone elses and how they were raised, with their traditions and beliefs.... There are some bad-minded people out there amongst the Evangelical movement. You small-minded souls amongst the Evangelicals are doing nothing for your image to the rest of the country. You’ll just reinforce the image of red-necked southern crackers who are snake-handlers or speak in tongues while throwing your hands up in the air singing praise the lord at the top of your lungs.

You know, I’m starting to have a very bad taste in my mouth for anti-Evangelicals. I’m trying not to paint with a broad brush here, but some of you anti-Evangelicals, and you know who you are, are sick puppies, who twist the whole meaning of religiosity. It’s one thing to believe in your own beliefs, it’s entirely another to slam someone elses and how they were raised, with their traditions and beliefs....There are some bad-minded people out there amongst the anti-Evangelical movement. You small-minded souls amongst the anti-Evangelicals are doing nothing for your image to the rest of the country. You’ll just reinforce the image of folks who stereotype all folks from the South as red-necked southern crackers who are snake-handlers or speak in tongues while throwing your hands up in the air singing praise the lord at the top of your lungs.

Two can play the same game.

(Yeah, we know)

[broncobilly]

I concur with your post and appreciate your thoughts. You are right, some “very sick puppies” are being exposed here. They are so far gone that they think they are on God’s errand.

This is the same spirit that we see on the other side of the world, the Jihadists. We too have fundamentailst who think they must do God’s work by destroying the “enemy.” Ours too attack from the shadows and won’t identify themselves. That is, they know they are doing dirty work, so they won’t say what church or religion they represent. However, by the details of their posts, we know they are fundamentalist Evangelicals. They are like the "sons of thunder" who wanted to bring down fire onto a city, to whom Jesus said, "Ye know not what spirit ye are of."

Their activities on these threads accomplish two valuable things, however. They give Mormons and many others a chance to show their reasonableness compared to this antagonistic spirit. And second, it serves to demonstrate to us what we must never allow into the oval office, a narrow minded, intolerant, antagonistic, fundamentalist Evangelical.

[greyfoxx39]

JIHADIST PING

[oswegodeee]

Oh I think you talk Football with him (minus the beer). My Mormon friends enjoy sports very much.

[GLDNGUN]

Ridiculous. Mormons have always considered themselves Christian. Mormons want nothing to do with people who lie about them. They get along fine with the others.

Oh really?

The Mormon Church Claims to be the Only True Church

Does Joseph Smith Jr. play a role in our salvation?

• Joseph Fielding Smith said: [There is] "no salvation without accepting Joseph Smith. If Joseph Smith was verily a prophet, and if he told the truth...no man can reject that testimony without incurring the most dreadful consequences, for he cannot enter the kingdom of God" (Doctrines of Salvation, vol. 1, p.190).
• Brigham Young stated: "no man or woman in this dispensation will ever enter into the celestial kingdom of God without the consent of Joseph Smith...every man and woman must have the certificate of Joseph Smith, junior, as a passport to their entrance into the mansion where God and Christ are" (Journal of Discourses, vol. 7, p.289).
• Brigham Young also declared, "he that confesseth not that Jesus has come in the flesh and sent Joseph Smith with the fullness of the Gospel to this generation, is not of God, but is anti-christ" (Journal of Discourses, vol. 9, p.312).
• President George Q. Cannon said: "If we get our salvation, we shall have to pass by him [Joseph Smith]; if we enter our glory, it will be through the authority he has received. We cannot get around him [Joseph Smith]" (as quoted in 1988 Melchizedek Priesthood Study Guide, p. 142).

Can salvation can come only through the LDS Church?

• Mormon scriptures claim that the LDS church is "the only true and living church upon the face of the whole earth" (Doctrine and Covenants, 1:30).
• Joseph Smith stated: "This [the LDS] Church...is the only true and living church upon the face of the whole earth" (Doctrine and Covenants 1:30).
• President Ezra Taft Benson said: "This is not just another Church. This is not just one of a family of Christian churches. This is the Church and kingdom of God, the only true Church upon the face of the earth..." (Teachings of Ezra Taft Benson, p.164-165).
• Bruce McConkie stated: "If it had not been for Joseph Smith and the restoration, there would be no salvation. There is no salvation outside The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints" (Mormon Doctrine, p.670).
• Marion Romney (LDS First Presidency) said, "This Church is the ensign on the mountain spoken of by the Old Testament prophets. It is the way, the truth, and the life" (Conference Report, April, 1961, pg. 119).

Statements by Mormon Leaders about Christian churches (made by many of the LDS Prophet-Presidents):

• Joseph Smith stated that God told him: "they [other churches] were all wrong; and the Personage who addressed me said that their creeds were an abomination in his sight; that those professors were all corrupt" (from Pearl of Great Price, Joseph Smith-History 1:19).
• Joseph Smith continues: "for the teachers of religion of the different sects understood the same passages of scripture so differently as to destroy all confidence in settling the question by an appeal to the Bible" (from Pearl of Great Price, Joseph Smith-History 1:12). "What is it that inspires professors of Christianity generally with a hope of salvation? It is that smooth, sophisticated influence of the devil, by which he deceives the whole world" (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p.270).
• Questions put to Joseph Smith: "'Do you believe the Bible?' [Smith:]'If we do, we are the only people under heaven that does, for there are none of the religious sects of the day that do'. When asked 'Will everybody be damned, but Mormons'? [Smith replied] 'Yes, and a great portion of them, unless they repent, and work righteousness." (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 119).
• Brigham Young stated this repeatedly: "When the light came to me I saw that all the so-called Christian world was grovelling in darkness" (Journal of Discourses 5:73); "The Christian world, so-called, are heathens as to the knowledge of the salvation of God" (Journal of Discourses 8:171); "With a regard to true theology, a more ignorant people never lived than the present so-called Christian world" (Journal of Discourses 8:199); "And who is there that acknowledges [God's] hand? ...You may wander east, west, north, and south, and you cannot find it in any church or government on the earth, except the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints" (Journal of Discourses, vol. 6, p.24); "Should you ask why we differ from other Christians, as they are called, it is simply because they are not Christians as the New Testament defines Christianity" (Journal of Discourses 10:230).
• Orson Pratt proclaimed: "Both Catholics and Protestants are nothing less than the 'whore of Babylon' whom the Lord denounces by the mouth of John the Revelator as having corrupted all the earth by their fornications and wickedness. Any person who shall be so corrupt as to receive a holy ordinance of the Gospel from the ministers of any of these apostate churches will be sent down to hell with them, unless they repent" (The Seer, p. 255).
• Pratt also said: "This great apostasy commenced about the close of the first century of the Christian era, and it has been waxing worse and worse from then until now" (Journal of Discourses, vol.18, p.44) and: "But as there has been no Christian Church on the earth for a great many centuries past, until the present century, the people have lost sight of the pattern that God has given according to which the Christian Church should be established, and they have denominated a great variety of people Christian Churches, because they profess to be ...But there has been a long apostasy, during which the nations have been cursed with apostate churches in great abundance" (Journal of Discourses, 18:172).
• President John Taylor stated: "Christianity...is a perfect pack of nonsense...the devil could not invent a better engine to spread his work than the Christianity of the nineteenth century." (Journal of Discourses, vol. 6, p.167); "Where shall we look for the true order or authority of God? It cannot be found in any nation of Christendom." (Journal of Discourses, 10:127).
• James Talmage said: "A self-suggesting interpretation of history indicates that there has been a great departure from the way of salvation as laid down by the Savior, a universal apostasy from the Church of Christ". (A Study of the Articles of Faith, p.182).
• President Joseph Fielding Smith said: "Doctrines were corrupted, authority lost, and a false order of religion took the place of the gospel of Jesus Christ, just as it had been the case in former dispensations, and the people were left in spiritual darkness." (Doctrines of Salvation, p.266). "For hundreds of years the world was wrapped in a veil of spiritual darkness, until there was not one fundamental truth belonging to the place of salvation ...Joseph Smith declared that in the year 1820 the Lord revealed to him that all the 'Christian' churches were in error, teaching for commandments the doctrines of men" (Doctrines of Salvation, vol. 3, p.282).
• More recent statements by apostle Bruce McConkie are also very clear: "Apostasy was universal...And this darkness still prevails except among those who have come to a knowledge of the restored gospel" (Doctrines of Salvation, vol 3, p.265); "Thus the signs of the times include the prevailing apostate darkness in the sects of Christendom and in the religious world in general" (The Millennial Messiah, p.403); "a perverted Christianity holds sway among the so-called Christians of apostate Christendom" (Mormon Doctrine, p.132); "virtually all the millions of apostate Christendom have abased themselves before the mythical throne of a mythical Christ whom they vainly suppose to be a spirit essence who is incorporeal uncreated, immaterial and three-in-one with the Father and Holy Spirit" (Mormon Doctrine, p.269); "Gnosticism is one of the great pagan philosophies which antedated Christ and the Christian Era and which was later commingled with pure Christianity to form the apostate religion that has prevailed in the world since the early days of that era." (Mormon Doctrine, p.316).
• President George Q. Cannon said: "After the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints was organized, there were only two churches upon the earth. They were known respectively as the Church of the Lamb of God and Babylon. The various organizations which are called churches throughout Christendom, though differing in their creeds and organizations, have one common origin. They all belong to Babylon" (Gospel Truth, p.324).
• President Wilford Woodruff stated: "the Gospel of modern Christendom shuts up the Lord, and stops all communication with Him. I want nothing to do with such a Gospel, I would rather prefer the Gospel of the dark ages, so called" (Journal of Discourses, vol. 2, p.196).

[rightazrain]

Your words:

“fundamentalist Evangelicals”

My words:

“Bible-believing Christians”

You keep haranguing about, “What is the name of your church?”
What do you pay your pastor, is the money from a salary, or is it from the offerings?” What is the value of your church property?”

And on and on and on!

What is the purpose of these questions? Christians do not judge other Christians by these standards. The name on the church door, or how the pastor is paid, or how much the value of the church property is is not important.

Christians know that Christians are those who believe in one God in three persons, who are saved through their faith in Jesus Christ, and His blood atonement for them on the cross, and nothing more. Because of Him, and their faith in Him, they are baptized and do good works, which are as filthy rags, save His infinite grace.

They are SAVED, forgiven, and KNOW they are going to Heaven. Therefore, they have a PEACE that passes understanding.

This is why Christians, as we talk to Mormons on this open forum, defend our faith. So that readers who ponder on these things are not deceived by this false religion of the LDS church. It is a religion based on works, without any blessed assurance of salvation which Jesus Christ has promised. It is a religion that enslaves its members to furious works so they may (maybe) achieve salvation, based on the teachings of false prophets who have perverted the glorious gospel (good news) of Christ.

Blessed assurance, based on God’s promises in God’s Word is so infinitely better! Thank you, Lord God Almighty for your free gift of salvation, in Jesus’ name. Amen

[UCANSEE2]

“The Mormon Church Claims to be the Only True Church”

Don’t they all?

[FastCoyote]

“They give Mormons and many others a chance to show their reasonableness”

he said as scratched his magic underwear, and launched into a boisterous rendition of Hie Me to Kolob, read through an opaque peepstone pulled from a well.

“And second, it serves to demonstrate to us what we must never allow into the oval office, a narrow minded, intolerant, antagonistic, fundamentalist Evangelical.”

Oh, you are such a bigot! I can’t believe you could say something so bigoted! bigot bigot bigot bigot!