The uninvited guest: Chinese sub pops up in middle of U.S. Navy exercise

Daily mail ^ | MATTHEW HICKLEY

[secretagent]

When the U.S. Navy deploys a battle fleet on exercises, it takes the security of its aircraft carriers very seriously indeed. At least a dozen warships provide a physical guard while the technical wizardry of the world's only military superpower offers an invisible shield to detect and deter any intruders.

That is the theory. Or, rather, was the theory.

Uninvited guest: A Chinese Song Class submarine, like the one that sufaced by the U.S.S. Kitty Hawk

American military chiefs have been left dumbstruck by an undetected Chinese submarine popping up at the heart of a recent Pacific exercise and close to the vast U.S.S. Kitty Hawk - a 1,000ft supercarrier with 4,500 personnel on board.

By the time it surfaced the 160ft Song Class diesel-electric attack submarine is understood to have sailed within viable range for launching torpedoes or missiles at the carrier.

According to senior Nato officials the incident caused consternation in the U.S. Navy.

The Americans had no idea China's fast-growing submarine fleet had reached such a level of sophistication, or that it posed such a threat.

One Nato figure said the effect was "as big a shock as the Russians launching Sputnik" - a reference to the Soviet Union's first orbiting satellite in 1957 which marked the start of the space age.

The incident, which took place in the ocean between southern Japan and Taiwan, is a major embarrassment for the Pentagon.

[secretagent]

Ouch

[org.whodat]

Ouch

The US Navy, just one blunder after another!

[rlmorel]

I think this is an old, recycled story that keeps popping up. I think I have seen it a dozen times in the last year. It originally happened in 2005 or 2007 sometime.

[wastedyears]

The Chinese are going to try something.

[em2vn]

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1923614/posts

[hellbender]

A couple of decades ago China was a backward, isolated society. We’ve been building up the greatest potential enemy in our history by suicidal trade policies. The Chinese have bought enough of our corrupt politicians in both parties (not just the Clintons) that this policy will not change. Only Duncan Hunter seems to care about this. Internationalists or global-trade freaks like Giuliani or Romney certainly don’t.

[saganite]

Dielsel electrics are extemely quiet and can do a lot of damage in coastal waters. That’s not news.

[kc8ukw]

What can you do though? We aren’t at war with China, so we can’t just sink their sub for getting too close, right?

[Spktyr]

Yup, and it alerted us to the threat that the latest diesel-electrics pose. So much so, that we borrowed one of the newest and best from the Swedes and learned what to do about them.

Not that they’re not a threat any more, but the USN is confixdent that this won’t be happening again.

[theDentist]

Ping

According to senior Nato officials the incident caused consternation in the U.S. Navy.

I'm betting THAT is an understatement of great proportion.

[Sherman Logan]

It could be an accident...

[jwalburg]

We’ve been building up the greatest potential enemy in our history by

cheap plastic toy after cheap plastic toy.

[secretagent]

Thanks for pointing out the prior post.

I should have searched “title” by date, rather than score.

[CodeMasterPhilzar]

Another consideration... Suppose you detect it. Then the bigger strategy question is, do you let on (prosecute the contact), or act surprised when they intentionally reveal themselves (surface)?

On one hand, it might be nice to drive them off immediately upon detection. That basically sends the message: don't even try it, you'll fail and die. On the other hand, letting them think they can get close without being detected builds up a false sense of security on their part. Makes them overconfident, and allows you to easily kill them once you have authorization.

So the question now is, what really happened? Could they have gotten close undetected? Sure, D-E are very quiet boats on battery. (but short legs) But maybe they're being set up... The USN has done this before. In the 80s several Victor IIIs were detected in the Atlantic headed for the eastern seaboard. There was some discussion over whether to react or not...

[hellbender]

Not just toys. Hardware, clothing, electronics, sporting goods, and on and on. It’s hard to find a store which isn’t glutted with Chinese goods. We’re addicted to cheap labor, because it helps compensate for the inflation caused by government. China holds a mortgage on the U.S.; its purchase of bonds props up our rotten entitlement programs.

[secretagent]

I think this is an old, recycled story that keeps popping up. I think I have seen it a dozen times in the last year. It originally happened in 2005 or 2007 sometime.

Possible. No date for the incident reported in the article.

[Lancey Howard]

Somebody better get their head out of their rear-end. Certainly, the residual effects of the Scumbag Administration left long-term damage to the military, but Bush has been in for seven years now. Clearly we need to upgrade certain technologies.

[saganite]

Good point. However, I know there are instances (in coastal waters where diesel electrics are very effective) that the navy has gotten a few wake up calls.

[secretagent]

The Chinese are going to try something.

Any ideas?

[Liberty Valance]

Seems I recall a few tech secrets going to the chi-coms for campaign cash during the Clinton Administration. Nah ... couldn’t be.

[secretagent]

We’ve been building up the greatest potential enemy in our history by suicidal trade policies. The Chinese have bought enough of our corrupt politicians in both parties (not just the Clintons) that this policy will not change.

Examples?

[Eye of Unk]

We knew to the minute when the rice was loaded on that sub for the crew and every minute after that. The only way to even do any damage would be if they detonated a multi megaton nuke while it was aboard.

[rlmorel]

Check out the pre-existing discussion at:

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1923614/posts?page=132#132

Jeff Head (one of Free Republic’s resident experts on Naval issues) has opined (and I agree) that the Chinese sub was forced to surface. (Be sure to read his post)

It makes more sense than just surfacing in the middle of the battle group to make a point. Any sub drivers out there have an opinion of whether or not a sub is going to surface in the company of “enemy” ships without being forced to do so?

I was always under the impression that was anathema to any submariner of ANY country, but not having served on boats, I don’t know. Any thoughts?

[restornu]

After all the so called useless technology the 1st Clinton sold to Chian, wonder what the 2nd Clinton would do?

[imahawk]

That was my thought exactly.Nice to have an Ace up one’s sleeve.

[CodeMasterPhilzar]

Oh yeah, inshore sonar conditions are generally terrible. I’d guess, and this is just a guess, that it’s about 75% chance the sub really did surprise them. You’ve got to assume the other guy is a least as smart/clever as you, and just as dedicated. So yeah, the sub driver may have beaten the screen this time ‘round.

[Blood of Tyrants]

Recycled or not. It is of great concern that it was able to draw within torpedo shot without being detected.

[Liberty Valance]

fttt

(forced to the top ;o)

[Hilltop]

Perhaps this Chinese submaraine was allowed surface with the knowledge of the U.S.A. Navy.

I think so.

This floating Chinese turd could have been sent to the latrine of hell, at the command of the U.S.A.

[hellbender]

How about this one:

Presidential candidate and current Ranking Member of the House Armed Services Committee, Congressman Duncan Hunter, today called on former Governor Mitt Romney to send a "clear statement" to the leadership of the company he founded, Bain Capital, to terminate a proposed business deal with a controversial Chinese corporation seeking to acquire U.S. defense contractor 3COM. Bain Capital is attempting to form a business arrangement with Huawei Corporation, a Chinese corporation founded by an officer of the Peoples Liberation Army of Communist China, which faces allegations of assisting Saddam Hussein in the targeting of U.S. aircraft and in helping the Taliban develop surveillance equipment.

Corruption isn't just taking unmarked currency in briefcases. It's making profits by trading with the enemy. We all know the theoretical benefits of free trade, but trade which builds up a hostile totalitarian state and makes one's nation dependent on it, is folly.

[snarks_when_bored]

If you let people build all of your stuff for you, you'll at first have to show them how to do it. Once you've done that, they'll figure more out for themselves (or steal what they need). Then, while your kids are playing video games, they'll turn out millions of smart, motivated engineers and begin the process of your dismantlement.

Welcome to the new millenium, America...

[CodeMasterPhilzar]

I was only a civilian puke working with the Navy in the 80s... But it was my understanding that detection was generally considered universally bad. You never wanted them to detect you, period. You wouldn't want them getting a recording of your sonar signature. You wouldn't want them to see you execute your evasion tactics, nada. You don't want to give the other side any information at all. It was to the point that when subs played wargames they would use sound augmenters to make them louder than normal, and change their signatures so that no-one, even our allies, knew exactly what they sounded like.

However, it is said that if you really, really want to rattle a surface group commander's chain... You let them detect you, get a solid hit, then disappear. That way they know death is on their doorstep, and there is nothing they can do about it. It is rumored that under direct orders from someone at the admiral level that card may have been played once or twice.

One guess on the chinese sub's surfacing... They played the game well and managed to get inside the screen. However, it took so long and/or relied on favorable currents/drifting etc. that they had no battery left for a mock attack or evasion/extraction and were forced to surface to recharge and/or exchange air. Or maybe the screen commander decided to prosecute the contact and they were forced to surface. That could be from an active sonar lashing, mock depth charges (Soviets used to do that to us)...Or maybe the sound of a 688 opening the outer doors of its torpedo tubes about 3000 yds astern... ;-)

[secretagent]

Thanks for the example.

I have to hit the hay, but will respond later.

[dk/coro]

I was in the ASW business in the Navy for decades during the Cold War.
From my observations then — and from what I have been able to discern now — effective submarine operations by a quiet boat and a skilled commander is a “given” by any honest operational commander.

Effective Anti-Submarine Warfare capability by ANY navy is essentially wishful thinking — by and large.

As an example, when I was 35 at CincPacFlt in 1973, we ran Queenfish right into the heart of Vlad Harbor, the Soviet Pacific Fleet HQ; acquired needed intel over an appreciable period — and returned the boat to Pearl — fully undetected!

And, just think what would have happened in Tonkin Gulf to our NVN Rolling Thunder operations, had the Soviets placed just one submarine in what was essentially an American Lake!
The Soviets chose not to -- an "understanding" reached at the highest levels of both governments! I rest my case. *S*

[B4Ranch]

I wonder what their capabilities are these days if this is old news.

[Zack Attack]

The uninvited guest: Chinese sub pops up in middle of U.S. Navy exercise

Chinese sub? I wouldn't worry about it. It'll be recalled sooner or later.

[rlmorel]

This incident apparently took place in 2006 sometime. I found a blog from February 2007 which talks about this in the past tense. This same blog has an interesting (if unverifiable by me) discussion of PRC submarine capabilities. For example:

"... The Song Incident: One of the two patrols conducted in 2006 appears to have been the widely reported surfacing of a Song-class diesel-electric submarine near the U.S. aircraft carrier USS Kitty Hawk in the South China Sea. The news media and pundits dramatized the incident as an example of China expanding its submarine operations, the Chinese government downplayed the reports as inaccurate, and the Pentagon said the media made too much of the incident...."

There is also an interesting graphic, derived from data obtained (according to the blog) by the Freedom of Information Act which portrays the number of patrols carried out by PRC submarines up until 2006:

They say there were only TWO patrols by the entire PRC sub force during 2006, and the "Kitty Hawk Incident" was supposedly one of them.

I will say this much: I must take with a grain of salt any information from this organization that runs the Strategic Security Blog website (The Federation of American Scientists) because they do indeed have a political agenda, that of disarmament. That said, it meets their political goals to downplay reports of a strong PRC submarine force or any increase in its capabilities because I suspect (don't know if it is true, someone else may know better) they feel that is how the government gets more money to fund the military in the USA. I think these might be the same people who complained the US deliberately overestimated the Soviet military might during the Cold War to justify more military expenditures for the US military.

I hesitate to shill for this site, but it seems to have more info up front in this article than anywhere else...all others seem to just make guesses. Check it out and decide for yourselves...

I am interested in hearing what others think. For the record, I personally think we need to massively build up our diminished sub forces and anemic antisubmarine forces, not just for the PRC, but also for a resurgent and militaristic Russia, Venezuela, Iran...etc.

[rlmorel]

Sorry...forgot the link:

The Strategic Security Blog (Run by the Federation of American Scientists)

[elk]

Are we SO dumbed-down now? I can't believe we continually pay for the Chinese rope to hang ourselves. The Chinese, I betcha, have a vision, and are working toward that vision. America -well, our Gen-Y vision is blurred due to too much video-gaming, and the upcoming generations (what's left of 'em) don't strike much hope in me.

There's great protection in frugality and loyalty to American products (so far, at least). If you buy only what you really need (need, i.e., necessity, not frivolous), and take pains to buy carefully those items meeting the "need" threshhold, it helps.

Examples:

Purchasing wheat-soy-corn-by-product-free dog food avoided kidney failure from melamine-tainted wheat gluten from China; it was a smidge more expensive, but the dog's hair stopped falling out from the breeder-recommended mainstream brand of dog food and the bonus was avoiding the kidney failure risk.

Avoiding the purchase of most toys for the children - instead giving them a piano, paper, pencils, books, our time (from not having to work to buy more junk), made-in-USA Needak rebounder, etc., has been GREAT when I didn't have to panic that the wee ones were chewing on lead. No price for that peace-of-mind.

[RSmithOpt]

counter intel anyone? That would be my ploy if I were Navy Brass....let them think we didn’t know they ere there.

[Sandreckoner]

Old story. Didn’t happen the way it’s portrayed. If people want to use it as a scare tactic to increase funding for our own submarine force, though, I’m all for it.

[Caipirabob]

One guess on the chinese sub's surfacing... They played the game well and managed to get inside the screen. However, it took so long and/or relied on favorable currents/drifting etc. that they had no battery left for a mock attack or evasion/extraction and were forced to surface to recharge and/or exchange air. Or maybe the screen commander decided to prosecute the contact and they were forced to surface. That could be from an active sonar lashing, mock depth charges (Soviets used to do that to us)...Or maybe the sound of a 688 opening the outer doors of its torpedo tubes about 3000 yds astern... ;-)

Thanks for the insightful post.

[Yorlik803]

If the Hilliary gets elected, look for a fire sale on all military tech stuff for cold, hard cash...

[wastedyears]

They’re the Chinese, I have no idea.

[aroundabout]

What can they possibly “try” along the lines of aggressive action that would not bring a response that would at the same time be swift and totally devastating? Despite the fact their sub sneaked up on us, which could just as easily been caused by a sailor asleep at the switch as any new Chinese technology, their (and that of any other Nation) total destruction is assured in any all out conflict with this country.

[flowerplough]

For modern navies, there is no ship more enviable than the aircraft carrier, eh? No ship is a more tempting target to the modern submarine, either. A recent post here described how a South African submarine “sank” every NATO ship involved in an exercise off the Cape. (http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1891291/posts)

Today’s best torpedos are capable of triple-digit speeds while completely submerged, and many submarines are capable of firing some version of guided or cruise missile. Today’s aircraft carriers may be useful for anti-insurgent force projection in an imbalanced, suppressive way, but in matched naval conflict, the carriers will probably be crippled, or even underwater, fairly quickly.

[Tallguy]

On one hand, it might be nice to drive them off immediately upon detection. That basically sends the message: don't even try it, you'll fail and die. On the other hand, letting them think they can get close without being detected builds up a false sense of security on their part. Makes them overconfident, and allows you to easily kill them once you have authorization.

Interesting points. I think that deception/gamesmanship are in order when you're dealing with a peer -- which the Soviets were in the Cold War (in terms of sub numbers). OTOH, the Chinese PLAN are neophytes. I think that you would do the opposite & aggressively prosecute any sonar contacts involving their boats. As you said: send the message "don't even try".

[Young Werther]

I was a Top Secret-SIOP ESI cleared officer while in the Air Force.

We were tracking this sub with acoustical techniques and satellite imagery. Remember when we recovered a Soviet Submarine that had sunk in the Pacific. We knew where it was and used a CIA built deep water recovery ship to pull that sub out of 16,000 feet of water.

Of course the last paragraph contains classified material so now I have to shoot you. Please come to DFW and I'll only be to glad to maintain this classified material until the next doofus posts this type of material.

Quae Cum Ita Sunt!

Sub K129

[A.A. Cunningham]

Jeff Head (one of Free Republic’s resident experts on Naval issues)

That's debatable.

[Wolfie]

Then, while your kids are playing video games, they'll turn out millions of smart, motivated engineers and begin the process of your dismantlement.

But when the power brokers of our society are getting filthy rich from the process, there's not much We The People can do to stop it.