Posted on 10/04/2007 11:12:27 AM PDT by Diana in Wisconsin
State Rep. Marlin Schneider has been raving for years to his fellow legislators about an attack on the unprotected American spy ship USS Liberty in 1967 by Israeli fighter jets and torpedo boats that killed 34 and injured 171.
The Wisconsin Rapids Democrat has repeatedly tried to get a resolution through the Assembly asking Congress for an investigation of the attack. But Israel says the attack was a case of mistaken identity during the Six-Day War against several Arab states, and Schneider has been met with boredom and occasional sneers from his colleagues. Some say the Wisconsin Legislature has no business considering an international matter.
This week, however, the Chicago Tribune published a comprehensive report that included reviewing now-unclassified documents and interviewing people who were on the ship and nearby in the Mediterranean at the time.
The men still living who were on the ship during the attack want a full-fledged investigation. The Tribune account presents some evidence to support their contention that the Israelis knew what they were attacking and that the nearby 6th Fleet first sent out planes to intercept the Israelis and then called them back.
Some contend that Israel feared the U.S. spy ship might intercept plans to widen the war, or that the attack might draw the United States into the war if the U.S. thought Arab forces had hit the ship.
Israel apologized and paid reparations to survivors and family members of the dead and made a payment to the U.S. government for the loss of the ship.
Schneider became interested in the matter in 1998, when he got an e-mail from an Oshkosh man asking whether the federal government could be petitioned about an investigation of the attack.
"I thought it was a no-brainer, an attack on an American ship in which a young sailor from Fond du Lac, Duane Margraaf, was killed," Schneider said.
"But someone warned me that this would be viewed as an assault on the nation state of Israel. As soon as you say something about it, the Jewish lobby crawls all over you, and they call you an anti-Semite."
His resolution went nowhere, and the Assembly decided not to petition the federal government about anything, after which Schneider's fruitless resolutions asked other states to petition Congress for an investigation.
The men who served on the Liberty believe that the attack was deliberately carried out by the Israelis.
"I talked to some of the guys who were on the ship who said that Israeli planes flew over for hours on a sunny day when the American flag was clearly displayed and even tipped their wings," Schneider said.
"But all the sudden they launched a violent attack. A distress signal was sent to the Sixth Fleet, which sent planes to intercept the planes attacking, but Lyndon Johnson and Robert McNamara literally called the planes back. They were not allowed to defend the ship."
Despite the Tribune investigation, Schneider doesn't think that Congress will do anything about the matter.
Link to Chicago Tribune story is in original article at link.
I wasn’t sure if posting links from the Trib was “kosher.” ;)
A couple of old Liberty threads here:
The FReeper Foxhole Remembers Attack on the USS LIBERTY - Part I (6/8/1967) - Sep. 8th, 2003 http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-vetscor/977970/posts
and here:
The FReeper Foxhole Remembers Attack on the USS LIBERTY - Part II (6/8/1967) - Sep. 9th, 2003
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-vetscor/978625/posts
With that said, the incident happened 40 years ago, the Israelis paid reparations to family members and the U.S. government, and went on to do good work on our behalf in the Middle East, often unappreciated. It's probably time to let the Liberty incident go... Just MHO.
I’ve come to the same conclusion. If we are going to be angry about anything, it should be LJB and that idiot McNamara that bear the brunt of it.
And some other USS Liberty threads:
USS Liberty [NSA declassified more documents on 40th anniversary]
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1847390/posts
Israel blamed for USS Liberty attack
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1056805/posts
Cover-Up Alleged in Probe of USS Liberty
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1006812/posts
Vets Seek Probe Of Israeli War Crimes (USS Liberty incident)
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1420173/posts
Declassified documents show Israel’s 1967 attack on USS Liberty ...
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/943547/posts
A+Bert’s favorite topic....Are you still alive Bert?
Hell, the Pueblo is still sitting in Wonsan harbor as a Communist tourist attraction.
We ought to be REALLY PO'd about that...but we're not for political reasons.
Full agreement on the Pueblo.
Agreed. There is nothing gained after forty years.
The only curious thing....if the aircraft carrier’s commander had been aggressive and allowed fighters to proceed...several Israel fighters would have been likely shot down. The navy would have fired the vessel’s commander and an apology would have come from the US....and never from the Israel government.
I don't know anything about Duane Margraaf, but I'm always a bit questioning of articles framing the issue in the context of it's about time we had an investigation. Leaving out the fact that there have been 11 prior government investigations, 6 congressional. The appeal, which has been made to every President since Reagan is for a 12th, not a first.
===================
Vets Seek Probe Of Israeli War Crimes (USS Liberty incident)
Tony & Krista are talking about the USS LIBERTY!!!!!
Navy Crew Gathering Examines 1967 Israeli Attack of USS Liberty
USS 'Liberty' hit was unintentional, says CIA
I haven’t followed it that long but what struck me is the obviousness (to me at least) each side is covering up their incompetence. The “flag” to signal jet fighters is a stupid story, just like the suggested “motive” that Israel would have attacked a ship off Sinai over worries the US would tip off Syria over Israeli plans to attack it. Geographically stretch, to say the least.
Of course I could be wrong, and the most likely way I am wrong IMO is that we were assisting Egyptian forces. Think about it, why would Americans on the Liberty suggest they were attacked because Israel feared Americans would inform Syrians? A little guilty conscience because that’s exactly what we were doing for the Egyptians?
I agree with you 100%.
“They were still in captivity when the Israelis attacked the Liberty.”
No, they were not. The Liberty incident happened i June 1967. The Pueblo was captured in Jan. of 1968.
Oops, my bad! The Pueblo Incident happened a year and half later! Thanks for the correction!
Listen, I know this is not popular with many of you contrarians but we were in the wrong. The loss of life we suffered was awful but it was a US Naval vessel operating under a liberal president who was up to no good with regards to the Israelis.
Regardless, it is over and by and large it is either contrarians [not conservatives], liberals or jew haters that keep trying to stir this subject up.
"Israel apologized and paid reparations to survivors and family members of the dead and made a payment to the U.S. government for the loss of the ship."
Case closed.
As explained to me by a historian,
“This is the first time our government has sided with a foreign power over the word of US military officers.”
You are pretty far behind the times. In 1999, the Clinton crowd allowed the North Koreans, unmolested, to sail it around the South Korean peninsula to Nampo. It is now anchored in the Taedong River at Pyongyang.
That would really make you all happy, wouldn't it?
Dang!
Everyone interested should read a book by John Loftus entitled “The Secret War Against The Jews. It gives everyone, who will read it, a great picture of the Israeli – American Relationship especially in the late 40’s between Ben Gurion and Rockefeller. Great reading, great eye opener and it relates to understanding why the Clinton White House pushed so hard on Israel to give up their security for a peace treaty with Arafat? How many peace accords did Arafat ever respect?
Now, I will make it harder on all of you. How many clause of the Oslo Accord did the Palis implement?
Now, Condi is right back where the Clinton White House left off but with a guy called Abbas. This guy was Arafat’s right hand henchman! We never learn, do we? Bush is repeating the same mistake all over again. There are no winners should someone complete this “peace negotiation”. Its always been a lose - lose proposition except that there are only 6 million Jews in Israel compare to about 300 million Arabs in neighboring countries. What is wrong with this picture folks?
Everyone interested should read a book by John Loftus entitled “The Secret War Against The Jews. It gives everyone who will read it a great picture of the Israeli – American Relationship especially in the late 40’s between Ben Gurion and Rockefeller. Great reading, great eye opener and it relates to understanding why the Clinton White House pushed so hard on Israel to give up their security for a peace treaty with Arafat? How many peace accords did Arafat ever respect?
Now, I will make it harder on all of you. How many clause of the Oslo Accord did the Palis implement?
Now, Condi is right back where the Clinton White House left off but with a guy called Abbas. This guy was Arafat’s right hand henchman! We never learn, do we? Bush is repeating the same mistake all over again. There are no winners should someone complete this “peace negotiation”. Its always been a lose - lose proposition except that there are only 6 million Jews in Israel compare to about 300 million Arabs in neighboring countries. What is wrong with this picture folks?
Wouldn’t want you to waste time on your vacation going to the wrong city for the tour. And I wanted to make sure the Clintons got the credit that they are due.
I’m a staunchly pro-Israel guy, but the Liberty attack stinks to high hell.
I realize the difficult situation that The West is constantly forcing upon Israel and am no big fan of the “Land for Peace” deal.
But, this is about the attack and how/why it occurred, not about historical relations with Israel and the ME.
Thanks!
Israel thought Liberty, a spy ship, was gleaning intelligence (for unknown end users) about Israeli operations and thus took action to silence. I think USA took out some television transmission facilities in Baghdad, killing some Chinese? We blew up a civilian passenger train crossing the Danube in Beograd and TV audiences cheered. “Acts of war” are in the eye of the beholder.
I think you’re right, in that Israel thought the Liberty was a threat and attacked it as such.
Now, wether Israel can continue to claim that they did not identify the vessel as US flagged is another story, entirely. And why our own government refused to intervene and protect ONE OF ITS OWN SHIPS is a matter of greater concern. I could understand the attack (to a degree), but not our government’s immediate response.
Of course, it’s easier to claim it as an accident than to deliberately admit that they attacked a US vessel.
Somehow, I knew you’d be up on this situation. I’d never heard of it before, believe it or not.
“Case closed.”
Not hardly.
From documentaries on the subject, the Liberty was retransmitting whatever it was gathering over open channels.
Ergo, the rationale was to keep it from broadcasting un-encoded transmissions where *anybody* could hear how badly the Israelis were destroying the combined Arab armies.
In the latter part of the cold war, the French were eavesdropping on NATO comms, breaking the encoding, and then re-encoding in French ciphers to transmit back to the France. The East Germans couldn't break the NATO ciphers, but could the French encoding...
Any way, the US was also screaming an SR-71 way over the battlefield at least once each day, and part of the intel was used to resupply the Israeli combat losses.
Beyond the losses to Arab forces, it's kind of ironic that the US taxpayer was replacing Israeli SAMs that were trying to shoot down the unknown blips that were Blackbirds.
There have been TEN Congressional Probes over 30 years- all found the attack UNintentional.. as did the last NSA Radio Releases showing the Israeli pilots did NOT know it was an American Ship.
And a few Years ago - the Pilot who lead the raid spoke out .. from Jpost.
This pilot Not towing the company line either is now a refusenik- and his ego obviously precludes his lying.
Oct. 10, 2003
Pilot who bombed ‘Liberty’ talks to ‘Post
By ARIEH O’SULLIVAN
An Israeli pilot who Mistakenly attacked the American intelligence ship USS Liberty during the 1967 Six Day War said they were lucky he had no bombs – otherwise he would have sunk her.
“There was a mistake. Mistakes happen. As far as I know, the mistake was of the USS Liberty being there in the first place,” said Brig.-Gen. (res.) Yiftah Spector.
After 36 years Spector, who this week was Dismissed by the IAF for signing the pilots’ refusal letter protesting the policy of Targeted killings, agreed to speak to a reporter for the first time on his role in the attack on the Liberty, an American spy ship strafed on the fourth day of the war.
Flying a Mirage III fighter jet code named “Kursa” or couch, Spector was the first pilot to reach the ship, which was about 20 nautical miles west of Gaza.
He had been on an air-to-air mission and was NOT loaded with bombs.
Spector, now 63, went on to become a triple ace, shooting down 15 enemy aircraft, and take part in the 1981 raid on the Iraqi nuclear reactor, earning himself a place in the pantheon of Israeli fly boys. This week he ended a 20-year stint teaching new generations of pilots.
Spector had always refused to discuss the attack on the USS Liberty, which killed 34 US sailors and wounded 172, or even be revealed as the pilot who led the attack on her. Until now.
“I did Not fire on the Liberty as a human target. I was sent to attack a sailing vessel.
This ship was on an escape route from the El Arish area, which at that same moment had heavy smoke rising from it,” Spector said.
“It was thought to be an Egyptian vessel. This ship positively did NOT have any symbol or flag that I could see. What I was concerned with was that it was not one of OURS.
I looked for the symbol of our navy, which was a large white cross on its deck,” he told The Jerusalem Post.
“This was Not there, so it wasn’t one of ours.”
The concern of the IAF was that Spector and his wingman, who had been diverted from the Suez Canal, would strike one of the Israel Navy ships in pursuit of the vessel, which was assumed to be Egyptian. IAF archival recordings of the pilots’ radio transmission of the actual attack obtained by the Post show that Spector was specifically requested to verify that the ship was a military vessel and Not Israeli.
According to the June 8, 1967, radio transmission, Spector said: “I CAN’T identify it but in any case it’s a Military ship.”
Speaking of the event 36 years later may have caused Spector to mix what he remembered with what he may have read and his testimony does not always match archival facts.
“I circled it twice and it did not fire on me. My assumption was that it was likely to open fire at me and nevertheless I slowed down and I looked and there was positively NO Flag. Just to make sure I photographed it,” said Spector, who retired from active duty as a brigadier-general in 1984.
Experts intimately acquainted with the incident said that the only photos Spector took were from his gun-sight camera during his strafing run. Regardless of whether the 455-foot ship bristling with eavesdropping antennas flew a US flag, which it evidently did from its starboard halyard, that banner was shot off in Spector’s first strafing pass.
“I was told on the radio that it was an Egyptian ship off the Gaza coast. Hit it. The luck of the ship was that I was armed only with light ammunition [30mm] against aircraft.
If I had had a bomb it would be sitting on the bottom today like the Titanic. I promise you,” Spector said.
The 30mm rounds were armor piercing, which to this day led Liberty survivors to believe they had been under rocket attack. Spector’s first pass ignited a fire which caused the ship to billow black smoke. Ironically, Spector transmitted he suspected the Liberty was putting out smoke to deliberately mask itself.
“Every order is given by commanders and the last one to receive it has to decide whether he will pull the trigger or not. In this instance I was the fighter. I checked what I had to check [i.e. that it was a military ship and not one of ours] and pulled the trigger,” Spector said.
“The crew should be thankful for their luck [that I was on an Air-to-Air Mission and did NOT HAVE any bombs]. It is a pity we attacked. I’m sorry for poor Capt. (William Loren) McGonagle, who was wounded in the leg and the other guys who were killed and wounded.”
“I’m sorry for the mistake. Years later my mates dropped flowers on the site where the ship was attacked,” Spector said. “I’m the last guy who has a problem with admitting mistakes and asking for forgiveness. There was a mistake, but it wasn’t my mistake.”
He added he remains baffled that the conspiracy theories live on that Israel deliberately attacked the US intelligence ship. He suggested it might be due to anti-Semitism, or anti-Israeli sentiments.
“I know that after the war one of the first things that was done was the establishment of a [US] senator’s inquiry.
I know this personally, because I was called upon to testify before it. They came to the country and I was questioned.
I told them what I told you just now – that there was a mistake. I am sorry for the mistake. In war mistakes happen,” Spector said.
He said that he had never in the past 36 years ever met with any of the Liberty survivors, but has no qualms about doing so now.
“They must understand that a mistake was made here,” Spector said. “The fool is one who wanders about in the dark in dangerous places, so they should not come with any complaints.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
I would also like to add in response to several comments- the Testimony of the US Crew is fairly IRRELEVANT.. as they could NOT know who the Israelis THOUGHT they were, and that victims of Friendly Fire attacks always feel it was intentional...
And finally- some crew brass are prorecting their own @ss as they blew Radio communications to be nowehere near there... and for all anyone knew (The USA and Israel) UNTIL they were attacked, they were Hundreds of Miles away.
Where is your head at?
How about you writing and sponsoring a series of bills to address the coming insolvencies of Medicaid Medicare and Social Security that are free market based?
We have real issues that need to be resolved and we have pontificating windbags twiddling their thumbs...
Beam me up Scotty.....
bump
Lose the tagline. Thanks.
“It was thought to be an Egyptian vessel. This ship positively did NOT have any symbol or flag that I could see.”
Sorry, that means this is the first certified combat pilot in history that was legally BLIND.
He’s lying here, in other words. Ever see a US ‘Battle Flag’ unfurled?
I have, many many times. No way you don’t ‘see it’ thats pure unadulterated bullshit.
his testimony does not always match archival facts.
But this is the most interesting point: Mp>there was positively NO Flag. Just to make sure I photographed it,
All the Israelis have to do is release the original, unPhotoshopped picture. Where is it?
I'll tell you what-post that photo, and we'll talk some more.
““They must understand that a mistake was made here,” Spector said. “The fool is one who wanders about in the dark in dangerous places, so they should not come with any complaints.”
American Sailors are Fools and Liars?
I can only conclude at this point you are an agent provocateur because no Israeli could be this stupid, blind or insensitive as to post the above drivel
W
How’s that?
W
“Listen, I know this is not popular with many of you contrarians but we were in the wrong. The loss of life we suffered was awful but it was a US Naval vessel operating under a liberal president who was up to no good with regards to the Israelis.”
The US was up to no good collecting data on and disseminating it to the Arabs engaged in war against the Israelis?
Or what was the “no good” to the Israelis the US was doing. Other than funneling billions of dollars of aid?
This pilot’s official version does not pass the smell test. And his comment about being in the area is quite telling.
It’s that arrogance thing at the end. Says more in that sentence than the whole “official story” of the attack.
He’s basically saying, you had no business being there so you got what you had coming.
That rings of the truth. The rest of the story doesn’t.
A “Battle Flag unfurled” on a ship moving Slowly with No wind, Bristling with antennas.. in the Heat of battle?
The day before the Liberty Israel straffed one of it’s own Tank Columns near Jenin.
“”””American Sailors are Fools and Liars?
I can only conclude at this point you are an agent provocateur because no Israeli could be this stupid, blind or insensitive as to post the above drivel””””
American Sailors are not fools and Liars. They do however carry this UNproveable torch too far- enabled by those against the Israeli state and, well.. Jews.
But AS I SAID ABOVE- what they THINK is solely that. They Could NOT and Did NOT know what/who the Israelis thought they were.
GOT IT?
This “I was an intentional victim” is quote common in Friendly Fire incidents...
and alos as I said above..
ALL US Ships were thought to be well OUT of the area and should have been.
The Liberty BLEW a Radio communication telling it do do so.
No one was expecting them to be there. Period.
Perhaps another reason to want to Blame someone else.
You are left the agent provocateur by your Empty knowledgeLESS response.
His arrogance/ego is precisely what DOES pass the smell test. He’s completely candid - an ego bigger than discretion.
AS does his refusal to fly any more missions ON PRINCIPLE/ a refusenik.
Also to note for you BEGINNERS the plane was on an air-to-air run and did NOT have Bombs.. as it Would have had if an attack on Liberty was planned.
Wrong. The Pueblo incident didn't happen until several months after the Liberty.
The flag was thought to be limp per the Naval inquiry. As abu afak notes, it was known there were no American ships within 100 miles of the war zone. Israel’s rules of engagement were liberal, any ships near shore were to be considered hostile and attacked. In keeping with this, the pilot notes that in making several passes, he was looking for the white cross indicating the ship was Israeli, not the same as trying to establish an identification. An unnecessary identification since there were no American ships in the area and the ship was considered hostile per the ROE. As abu afak also notes, the attack was carried out by air/air and air/ground munitions from planes diverted from other missions. Not what you’d use to sink a ship. In the absence of any credible reason Israel, in a fight for their survival, would attack an American ship, I’d assume it was a friendly fire incident. And the oft cited rationale that the US was transmitting intelligence to Syria and Lebanon doesn’t strike me as credible. And if were, it would come as no surprise to either country that Israel would be confronting them after Egypt was defeated in detail.
Abu Afak,
I have given you ample time to express remorse for the Israeli Injury and Killing of American Servicemen and the Attack on an American Ship. You have not..
Your postings have run from
It is our fault (Americans Fault) That Israeli Pilots Killed Americans.
To Calling the Americans Sailors killed Fools the Survivors Liars and Fools.
“They must understand that a mistake was made here,” Spector said. “The fool is one who wanders about in the dark in dangerous places, so they should not come with any complaints.
Your Arrogance, Ignorance and Ingratitude to the American People for their sacrifices of both fortune and lives defending Jews and Israel is palpable..
I cannot accept your words and attitude are representative of the Israeli People.
We defend you because Christ would have us do so.
We rail against the brutal and senseless murder of your children by Islamofacist Madmen. We defend Israel in the United Nations.
All while we are forced to defend ourselves against Anti-American Liberal Jewish Sacks here in the United States
while we never hear a condemnation of them from Israel.
Still our sons and daughters lose their lives trying to protect the Jewish Homeland...
Your words, more importantly your arrogant smirking attitude here has done nothing to justify the sacrifice.
W
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