Posted on 09/30/2007 6:50:03 PM PDT by blam
New Zealand in flap over plans for new flag
By Nick Squires in Sydney
Last Updated: 1:56am BST 01/10/2007
Union flag or rugby ponga?
New Zealand's prime minister, Helen Clark, has suggested removing the Union flag from her country's national flag.
Ms Clark said that removing the British emblem would "New Zealandise" the flag, leaving it as a stylised Southern Cross on a blue background.
New Zealanders have agonised for years over whether to change their national emblem, with some recoiling at the inclusion of the Union flag and wanting it replaced with a Maori-influenced design.
The most favoured alternative design is a silver fern, in Maori a ponga, on a black background — the emblem of the All Blacks national rugby team since 1893.
Others argue that the flag needs to be changed because it is all but identical to the Australian flag — only the colour and number of the Southern Cross stars are different.
Monarchists fear the removal of the Union flag could be the first step in a drive towards declaring New Zealand a republic.
An editorial in the New Zealand Herald said Ms Clark's suggestion should be opposed.
"The Southern Cross in a sea of blue locates us in the South Pacific and the Union flag in the corner represents our many positive British traditions," it said. "In a world racked by conflict, corruption, intolerance and bad governance, these traditions should be protected and encouraged."
But Ms Clark said New Zealand could ditch the Union flag, just as Canada adopted its maple leaf flag in 1964, without having to become a republic or change its constitutional relationship with Britain.
The two issues should be kept separate, she said. "I think people could debate the flag the way Canada did when it transitioned to the maple leaf without it calling into question the basic constitutional status. Canada, of course, still recognises the Queen as its head of state as well," she said.
Her suggestion sparked an intense debate in online newspaper forums, with some contributors in favour of the change.
"Our flag does not fill me with pride and has no real meaning for most. It is far too similar to the Australian flag," one New Zealand Herald reader wrote.
But others said the flag represented New Zealand's British heritage and should be retained.
"One thing that many people seem to have forgotten is that we have inherited the British political and justice systems. The Union flag represents this and I believe is something that is under valued," wrote another reader.
An Auckland man said New Zealand forces had fought under the flag in two world wars. "It's part of our history, it's who we are and it allies us with friends," he said.
Two years ago a lobby group, NZFlag.com, attempted to collect 270,000 signatures — 10 per cent of eligible voters — to force a referendum on changing the flag.
The campaign was abandoned when the petition did not attract enough supporters.
“It’s part of our history, it’s who we are and it allies us with friends,”
Makes sense to me.
I favor replacing the Union Jack with a hammer and sickle. How better to reflect what has happened to the most beautiful country in the world.
Rugby World Cup 2008 - Go All Blacks!!
http://www.appliedlanguage.com/flags_of_the_world/large_flag_of_falkland_islands_islas_malvinas.gif
I was thinking of something with a sheep on it but the Malvinas already did it.
I wish that our problems [in the US] were so simple.
Perhaps Helen Clark could just acknowledge that the Venezuelans were there before the English and recognize Hugo Chavez as their Soverign.
By Malvinas do you mean Falklands?
jas3
He is just stirring the pot up a bit.
Let me put it this way, if Bretons from Saint-Malo called it that, and were the first human settlers, then that's it's name.
Things with a history like that should not be trifled with by later illegal alien invaders you know.
Particularly when it was done by folks who were probably among my closer relatives in the world at that time.
Stating that Malvineas is the name is repugnant to the UK and is exactly the type of provocative language used by the Argentines in the run-up to that little war. - and you know it.
I smell hypocracy. And it stinks.
Yep.
Do you think I don't know these things?
The Ukian people were late comers to the world stage and frequently were NOT the first settlers in a given area.
Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
Helen clark is a Socialist ijit...
The current NZ flag is too full of history to change it now...
Wished now I had given in to the childish instinct of wanting to push helen Clark into the drink when she spoke at Lyttleton Harbour during the First Four Ships big doings in 2000...
The Maoris snickered every time she mispronounced that word...who told her that f*** was a Maori word anyway?
LOL
So, get off your high horse and quit worrying about your misperceptions.
(ahem) You mean a Destrier Horse?
I agree, Mr Clark wants to denigrate all of those that served under the Union Jack and probably won more VC’s per capita, plus a few bars, than any.
looks like a tea-towel...that’s aussie for a cloth one dries plates, knives and forks with...
And I’ve always thought it appropriate that the Kiwi flag stars are red.
Damn, UKian, that is good. As an ex UKian of 381 years distance I think we did pretty good. We introduced the idea of Representative government and the rule of law, we are not slaves, for now. I kinda like to think that we and the limies to a certain extent had a positive effect on the world stage.
1775
1777
General Washington wants to denigrate all Americans of those that served under the Union Jack! Bastards! God save good King George III!
The old flag looks good to us, but what do we yanks know ?
Does my heart good when someone just recounts simple facts.
I shouldn't ordinarily think that doing so would be that difficult, but I suppose I continually underestimate the historical revisionist morons.
Well said, and FReegards!
What nonsense. Austrailia’s flag has more stars to start.
Last time any of my ancestors did the Union Jack was the Frog and Indian war. Because of some poofs and Nancy boys in the Parlement who tried to bugger us with Taxes with out consent, we said shagg off.
Other than that we might still have a Union Jack in the corner.
how we remain upright I don't know...
LOL.
That is funny!
Not quite.
The Australian rendition of the constellation Crux (the Southern Cross) is more accurate, and includes five stars instead of the four shown on the New Zealand flag. (Epsilon Crucis is omitted from the New Zealand flag).
Australia's flag also contains the Commonwealth Star under the Union Flag, to symbolise the union of the Australian colonies into a single nation in 1901. New Zealand, incidentally, could have chosen to be part of that Federation, and the Australian Constitution includes language to reflect that.
They are similar flags, and that is partly a reflection of the fact that both the Australian, and New Zealand flag (as well as that of the Colony, later State, of Victoria - the first Victorian flag was almost identical to the current Australian flag) were based on an earlier design for the Anti-Transportation League Flag used througout the Australasian colonies in the early to mid 19th century).
Kiwi family arrives in Australia.
Son’s first day at school and the father say’s
“OK son what happened at school today”
“I topped the class at Math’s today”.
“Well son thats because your a New zealander”
Second day at school and the father say’s
“what happened at school today”
“I topped class in English”
“Well son thats because your a New zealander”.
Third day at school and the father say’s
“What happened at school today”
“We played mini Rugby and after the game we were in the shower’s and I noticed that I had a bigger wasser than all the other boys”
“Is that because I am a New zealander Dad”.
“No son” the father relied “that’s because your 27”.
...that’s because our sky is bigger than theirs...
yep...the tsunami wave flag!
Whew! I stand corrected and better informed. Thank you.
centurion316
I favor replacing the Union Jack with a hammer and sickle. How better to reflect what has happened to the most beautiful country in the world.
When New Zealand becomes a one-party state and exports Marxist doctrine, I'll let you know.
Tennessee Nana
Helen clark is a Socialist ijit...
The US Congress is Socialist controlled. It is quite on the cards that a Socialist/Communist will be the next US President, though of course not for the first time. But, we hope not. This person has publicly stated she will re-appropriate wealth if elected, like a good Communist does..... "We’re going to take things away from you on behalf of the common good."
george76
That James Dignan flag is looking good. I could see the silver fern where the red stripe is, but you can "flag" the other wave one away.
InABunkerUnderSF
Actually the Ausie flag is more astronomically correct. And I’ve always thought it appropriate that the Kiwi flag stars are red.
I don't think it was ever intended to be anything other than a stylised design. Something 'bout your flag ..... the red horizontal bars? .... can't put my finger on it.
naturalman1975
Interesting to read about the Anti-Transportation League flag. As far as current flags go, the New Zealand flag was gazetted in October 1869, predating the Australian (gazetted 1903, but not formalised until 1953 under the Menzies Government) and the Victorian State of Australia flags (instituted 1870, and gazetted November 1877).
Fred Nerks
OK, Fred, don't get me started on the two Aussies who got their shovels and took their passed on sea-faring friend out to sea to carry out his last wishes .....
: )
You North Islanders are all alike eh?
:)
(rolls eyes) (sigh)
Our silly prime minister — a tired old battery hen on her last legs in her third desperate term — is trying desperately to avoid that last trip to the Tegel factory.
Hanging on by with tired, sinewy talons onto the perches-of-power by sheer willpower.
Mostly gristle-and-bone-and-sparse-feathers by now, she might make a very nice — if parsimonious — KFC snack pack, particularly if you are a big fan large quantities of the eleven secret herbs and spices and didn’t mind being very “economical” with meat — too much protein is bad for you after all — and “KFC” actually means more than just “chicken”, as we all know: heck, even vegans can eat there!
However, if rendered down to bare essentials, maybe she’d make a tidy OXO cube or two... nope, Farmer Brown has her firmly in his sights, the truck is on its way, and desperate action is her only hope!
...no matter! She has a PLAN! A Cunning Plan! Let’s distract the voters, make them forget how little she has actually accomplished this past mandate, aside from making most of them very, very angry! But *what* to do??? Hmmm....
The Republic! That’s it! Certainly, by CHANGING THE FLAG and declaring a Republic, all of the “ticks” will be in the right boxes, and her place in History will be secured! Nevermind if there is no Mandate — what’s a “man-date” anyway, except something that she’s never had and would never want — the flag idea is PERFECT.
Desperate times require desperate measures, and time is running short! No, TIME IS OF THE ESSENCE, and the clock is ticking...
Now... to launch this plan. Who will be most likely to listen, without interrupting? Hmmmm. Eureka! Tell it to a bunch of kids! That’s the ticket!
The chicken coop is nervous... a truck has just pulled into the drive. “Gidday, mate!” says Farmer Brown. “She’s just in ‘ere, along with the rest of ‘em...”
Crikey! ...it’s Now or NEVER!
++++
In the US, if you want to know what two terms of HillBilly will be like, you need look no further than NZ’s three terms of Helengrad. Guaranteed, Hillary is playing by the Helen play-book, chapter-and-verse. Heck, even the words than come out of her mouth sound spookily like Helen...
You have been warned.
> The New Zealand and the Australian flag are identical except for the color of their stars.
Old Seadog, surely you can count!
The Aussie Flag has two extra stars, and each star has more “points” on it that the NZ Flag.
One of the extra stars is even bigger than all the rest, and is immediately under the Union Jack...
But you knew that, ay. You were just tricking to see if us Young Seadogs would notice (grin!)
Cheers
*DieHard*
...hmmm...shovels...boats...
took a while but I finally got it!
Pro’ly ~ I’ll ‘eave ‘at one f’r the wordsmiths.
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