Posted on 04/07/2007 6:28:06 AM PDT by kellynla
Later, the Captain stated the Cornwall couldn't have been any closer to them because of the shallowness of the water if nothing else. But why did the helicopter leave? Has anyone heard the reasoning behind that?
(And I'm not a conspiracy theorist and am implying nothing about why the helicopter left. Just wondering what the answer is.)
Here is what one of the Marine Officers had to say,
“I ordered everyone to make their weapons ready and ordered the boarding party to return to the boats. By the time all were back on board, two Iranian boats had come alongside. One officer spoke good English and I explained that we were conducting a routine operation, as allowed under a UN mandate. But when we tried to leave, they prevented us by blocking us in. By now it was becoming increasingly clear that they had arrived with a planned intent. Some of the Iranian sailors were becoming deliberately aggressive and unstable. They rammed our boat and trained their heavy machine guns, RPGs and weapons on us.
“Another six boats were closing in on us. We realized that our efforts to reason with these people were not making any headway. Nor were we able to calm some of the individuals down. It was at this point that we realized that had we resisted there would have been a major fight, one we could not have won with consequences that would have had major strategic impact. We made a conscious decision to not engage the Iranians and do as they asked. They boarded our boats, removed our weapons and steered the boats towards the Iranian shore.
At the beginning of his statement he uses the noun, “I” and the verb ‘ordered’. Which is true and right for an commanding officer to do. By the end of his statement, the "I" becomes ‘we’ and his verbs become all passive.
However, I just think that this in a microcosum displays the general values existing in British and European governments and society in general. I don’t doubt that the officer was under orders to not confront the Iranians in any way. I am surprised that two Marine Officers and Marines didn’t disregard those orders. I feel confident in saying that Americans we acknowledge official orders and then amongst ourselves decide what to do if higher command puts us in a stupid with stupid ROE. I don’t know who would take being an Islamic prisoner over a courtmarshal.
The Brits just screwed up...
They should have blown the Iranians out of the water before they attempted to capture the Sailors & Marines!
I am almost hoping that the Iranians try a similar stunt against our navy just to see how we would handle it. Unfortunately, I don’t think it would be too much different than the Brits. Does anyone recall how we responded back in 2001 when one of our military surveillance planes was intercepted in international airspace and forced to land in China?
The thing that almost floored me was when the one guy in the press conference said that if they had resisted the attempt to abduct them, some of them would have died. Not to be rude but isn’t that what happens to soldiers in a war? So is the definition of bravery now that if there is a chance a soldier will die it’s better to surrender? Too bad Kiing George didn’t realize that a couple hundred years ago.
Then again I’m not a soldier and I don’t know what I would’ve done in their situation, so I have to assume my hands would’ve been the first ones raised...but still...
I agree with your analysis. Today we could be tracking everything floating, including a canoe. If something even looks like it is heading toward one of ours, it should immediately be confronted. We should have continuous protection available within minutes to protect these operations. It is a different kind of situation, but if we would have had protection for the USS Liberty in 1967 and the USS Pueblo in 1968, the outcomes might have been different.
This is one of the reasons I swore I would never be taken prisoner in the unlikely event I was every shot down and survived. I still remember everything I learned from the men who suffered under the treatment of the North Vietnamese forces and with today’s enemy they are just going to kill you anyway so take as many as you can with you. Too this day I prefer to die fighting on my feet rather than being butchered while on my knees.
I do take issue with what looks like total compliance with the Iranians in the initial "apologies" and photo-ops while held captive. They folded way too soon. It looked like all the Iranians did was withhold the latest Harry Potter book and this crew fell to pieces.
Can any Freeper illuminate me on whether or not members of the United Kingdom’s armed forces are even covered by a code of conduct similar to the Code of Conduct for the United States armed forces? I mention this only because the phrase “name, rank and number” is almost a direct lift from the U.S. Code of Conduct.
Article V
When questioned, should I become a prisoner of war, I am required to give name, rank, service number, and date of birth. I will evade answering further questions to the utmost of my ability. I will make no oral or written statements disloyal to my country and its allies or harmful to their cause.
(http://usmilitary.about.com/od/theorderlyroom/l/blcode.htm)
I feel certain there probably is some equivalent document but it would be nice to see what it actually contains.
In their post-return statement, there was emphasis on the fact that resisting capture could have “major strategic consequence.” The phrase was repeated several times, IIRC. No doubt, the statement was crafted by the 15 with the “assistance” of the MoD and Foreign Office but that doesn’t preclude it reflecting the ROE they were actually operating under at the time of capture. Other than sparking conflict with Iran, what could the phrase “major strategic consequence” refer to? If so, was it the case that the boarding party and the HMS Cornwall were basically under orders to do nothing to exacerbate any incident with Iran even if it meant not resisting capture? Did their ROE, which are not disclosed for obvious OPSEC reasons, strip them of something U.S armed forces possess as a matter of right: the right of self-defense?
For kellynla: Semper Fidelis
Besides the chance to rip apart every box on the aircraft to find out how it worked.
I don't hold the crew accountable for landing in China because they were ordered to at the highest levels of the Pacific chain of command. I don't remember them ever admitting any wrong doing, but I doubt if they were treated as poorly as the UK sailors. In war time the Chinese will be as savage as you can imagine, but in this case they knew they needed to play their cards differently.
Check out the guys on the right in the photo -- not waving aor being pliant asses.
“This is one of the reasons I swore I would never be taken prisoner in the unlikely event I was every shot down and survived. I still remember everything I learned from the men who suffered under the treatment of the North Vietnamese forces”
Exactly, why I always kept one frag just in case I was surrounded, alone and without any more 5.56’s; I would have a special little present for my captors. If I’m gonna go; I might as well take a few with me and go out with a BANG!
Semper Fi,
Kelly
Article I: I am an American, fighting in the armed forces which guard my country and our way of life. I am prepared to give my life in their defense.
Article II: I will never surrender of my own free will. If in command I will never surrender the members of my command while they still have the means to resist.
Article III: If I am captured, I will continue to resist by all means available. I will make every effort to escape and aid others to escape. I will accept neither parole nor special favors from the enemy.
Article IV: If I become a prisoner of war, I will keep faith with my fellow prisoners. I will give no information nor take part in any action which might be harmful to my comrades. If I am senior, I will take command. If not, I will obey the lawful orders of those appointed over me and will back them up in every way.
Article V: When questioned, should I become a prisoner of war, I am required to give name, rank, service, number, and date of birth. I will evade answering further questions to the utmost of my ability. I will make no oral or written statements disloyal to my country and its allies or harmful to their cause.
Article VI: I will never forget that I am an American, responsible for my actions, and dedicated to the principles which made my country free. I will trust in my God and in the United States of America.
Now, I wonder, did the Iranians know? I mean come on, at the exact same time the BBC is there, they run this operation? Makes one wonder.
Still, there is no friggen way I or worse, I as an officer would allow capture.
I am sure the Iranians had been bumbling up against these boats before. Scouting and watching. They hustled and psychologically ran this snatch perfect.
I don’t think these Marine officers will be any trouble, because I think them surrendering and turning freely over their charges is, or was, standard operating procedure of their command and the political class.
What is that supposed to mean?
The aircraft was badly damaged in the collision with a hot dogging PRC J-8 at the intercept point and damn near crashed into the ocean before the pilot regained control. (The J-8 pilot did crash.) Based on the damaged state of the a/c, the pilot declared an emergency and made for the nearest airfield, hoping all the while they wouldn’t fall out of the sky before getting there. However, when you are doing electronic surveillance off of the southern coast of China, every nearest airfield is Chinese. (I have no idea how much classified equipment and other materials the crew was able to destroy/dispose of prior to landing, but I suspect the amount wasn’t zero.)
There was the usual blustering and posturing by the Chinese immediately after the incident but it died down when IMO the upper levels of the military and the Party realized their pilot probably was to blame for the incident (although they would never admit this as it would require an unbearable loss of face).
The only thing I wished would have happened was that, after landing, the EWP-3 was well on fire before the crew evacuated. Getting hold of the a/c, even if the really sensitive stuff was destroyed, was still a major coup for PRC intelligence.
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