Early Welsh warriors in red who once defeated the mighty Romans

I think I got that information from "Rome and the Barbarians"

As I recall, the Empire was wracked by massive civil wars in the 200's - due to different generals vying for the Purple. By the end of the century, there was such a loss of military manpower and leadership that in order to continue to face the barbarian threat from outside the Empire, they were forced to start recruitment of masses of barbarian mercenaries who fought under their own leaders and maintained their own language and culture, as well as bringing their own families into the Empire. It took several years to train a legionary - he was a skilled professional in engineering and fighting. A tribe of barbarians who were warriors by trade could be hired immediately. But they carried with them an insidious menace, and were in NO way equivalent in training, weaponry or skill to legionaries. (I had to laugh recently when they had a show on TV in which they stated a Celtic slashing great sword was superior to the gladius. In a one on one fight it might be. But the Romans fought in a discplined unit and you can put a lot more fighting men in the same fighting space using the gladius than using a large slashing sword - the latter requires, of necessity, more room to keep from hitting your own men.)

Prior to that event, the Romans recruited from subject peoples like the Britons, Balkan tribes, Spaniards, etc. The recruits were required to learn Latin as that was the language of the army. By the time they were discharged they had effectively been Romanized and often married local women in the areas in which they were serving. The next generation repeated the process. They also recruited auxiliaries who were allowed to fight in their own manner, but under overall Roman direction, and generally relocated to another part of the Empire from that in which they were recruited, e.g. the Sarmatians being sent to Britain, to amke sure no problems resulted from requiring them to fight their own people.

I think we have a lot to learn from the failures of Rome as well as from their successes:

the impact on a society of rampant immorality, the effect of a foreign religion, massive immigration by populations with no special wish or need to be assimilated, uncontrolled greed by the upper classes and their monopolization of land and wealth which led to the rise of popular demagogues, the DISARMAMENT of the civilian population and the relegation of weaponry use and skills to a professional class tied to their own class interests and those of their leaders rather than that of the state.
(Roman citizen I believe, were forbidden to carry weapons in the City. After Augustus seized power, he "relieved" the Italian population- which had up to that time provided the bulk of the legionaries - of any obligation to serve in the military and replaced them with recruits from conquered parts of the empire. Along with that, they were forbidden to carry weapons. The only exceptions were the Praetorian Guards, and later some legions raised in Italy.)

For some excellant reading on the Roman Army during its entire span get books by Adrian Goldsworthy, a Britsh author. Amazon carries them or used to.

What's the use of wearing braces ?
Vests and pants and boots with laces ?
Spats and hats you buy in places
Down the Brompton Road ?
What's the use of shirts of cotton ?
Studs that always get forgotten ?
These affairs are simply rotten,
Better far is woad.
Woad's the stuff to show men.
Woad to scare your foemen.
Boil it to a brilliant hue
And rub it on your back and your abdomen.
Ancient Briton ne'er did hit on
Anything as good as woad to fit on
Neck or knees or where you sit on.
Tailors you be blowed !!

TOMMY
by Rudyard Kipling (1865-1936)

I went into a public-'ouse to get a pint o' beer,
The publican 'e up an' sez, "We serve no red-coats here."
The girls be'ind the bar they laughed an' giggled fit to die,
I outs into the street again an' to myself sez I:
O it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Tommy, go away";
But it's "Thank you, Mister Atkins", when the band begins to play,
The band begins to play, my boys, the band begins to play,
O it's "Thank you, Mister Atkins", when the band begins to play.

I went into a theatre as sober as could be,
They gave a drunk civilian room, but 'adn't none for me;
They sent me to the gallery or round the music-'alls,
But when it comes to fightin', Lord! they'll shove me in the stalls!
For it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Tommy, wait outside";
But it's "Special train for Atkins" when the trooper's on the tide,
The troopship's on the tide, my boys, the troopship's on the tide,
O it's "Special train for Atkins" when the trooper's on the tide.

Yes, makin' mock o' uniforms that guard you while you sleep
Is cheaper than them uniforms, an' they're starvation cheap;
An' hustlin' drunken soldiers when they're goin' large a bit
Is five times better business than paradin' in full kit.
Then it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Tommy, 'ow's yer soul?"
But it's "Thin red line of 'eroes" when the drums begin to roll,
The drums begin to roll, my boys, the drums begin to roll,
O it's "Thin red line of 'eroes" when the drums begin to roll.

We aren't no thin red 'eroes, nor we aren't no blackguards too,
But single men in barricks, most remarkable like you;
An' if sometimes our conduck isn't all your fancy paints,
Why, single men in barricks don't grow into plaster saints;
While it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Tommy, fall be'ind",
But it's "Please to walk in front, sir", when there's trouble in the wind,
There's trouble in the wind, my boys, there's trouble in the wind,
O it's "Please to walk in front, sir", when there's trouble in the wind.

You talk o' better food for us, an' schools, an' fires, an' all:
We'll wait for extry rations if you treat us rational.
Don't mess about the cook-room slops, but prove it to our face
The Widow's Uniform is not the soldier-man's disgrace.
For it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Chuck him out, the brute!"
But it's "Saviour of 'is country" when the guns begin to shoot;
An' it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' anything you please;
An' Tommy ain't a bloomin' fool -- you bet that Tommy sees!

:')

The reason it fell - which should be a warning to us as a Nation now - is it had cease to "Romanize" new immigrant populations, allowing them to retain their own customs, leaders, and LANGUAGE.

The Roman empire failed to build a system for general and compulsory education, among many other seeds of its fall. However, the empire endured in some form for fifteen centuries.

Roman Empire -- from 241 BC (Sicily, the first Roman province) to the fall of Constantinople on Tuesday, May 29, 1453, 1694 years. (info from Wiki-Wacky-Pedia)

One could even count the foundation of the empire from the Roman conquest/founding of Ostia:

"Ostia was established in 620 BC by the Roman king Ancus Marcius."

http://www.rudymaxa.com/article.php?ArticleID=87

"The foundation of colonies at Ostia, Antium (338) and Tarracina (329), as well as earlier Latin colonies at Nepete (383) and Sutrium in the context of Etruria and the conquest of Veii, merit discussion both as garrisons and as vehicles of 'Romanisation', enabling the reader to better understand the mechanics of Rome's conquest of Italy: for example, the status of Capua in 334 (p. 50), and the reduction of Cisalpine Gaul and the spread of colonies, for example, at Placentia and Cremona."

http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/bmcr/2001/2001-03-29.html

"The Roman empire failed to build a system for general and compulsory education, among many other seeds of its fall. However, the empire endured in some form for fifteen centuries."

I agree with the second part of your premise, but not the first as a significant contributory cause.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/wales/history/sites/language/pages/romans.shtml

"In Wales the Romans faced a mighty struggle to subdue the native tribes, particularly the Silures of the South East. After 70 AD they managed to pacify them, and after building a fort at Caerleon (Isca Silurum) to keep the peace, they established a town at present day Caerwent which they called
Venta Silurum, or Town of the Silures. With the Latin 'v' pronounced as 'w', the memory of Rome was preserved when Venta became the post-Roman kingdom of Gwent.

By then the Brittonic speakers faced new invaders from three points of the compass. Commonly know as the Barbarians, these different tribes were to have a profound influence on the languages spoken in Britain. One group in particular was responsible for a language which much later would dominate the world." (Mexican?)

Marty McFly: Yeah, well, history is gonna change.

Excellent find

There is indeed an important lesson to be learned from the fall of Rome, but it's simple: between plague, taxes and slavery, the native Roman birth rate collapsed, and there were simply fewer and fewer Romans to bear more and more burdens: of military service and of taxation to pay for it, even as the ever-fecund barbarians were pressed onto the frontiers of the Empire by the also-fecund and even more ferocious barbarians further behind them to the East.

In the age of the Republic, when the "empire" was confined to Italy, the Army was composed of Romans, mostly sturdy farmers. But with the conquest of ever greater swathes of land - and the characteristically brutal Roman practice of carting off vast swathes of conquered populations as slaves - slaves were cheap and expendable, and replaced the native-born farmer in the Italian countryside. His life became easier, in the sense that he no longer worked the land and no longer labored hard, but migrated to the growing cities where the imperial treasury kept the dole good and the games flowing. Of course Romans were loyal to their Empire: it was a good life (but you didn't live long as a Roman slave). Ancient Roman cities had plumbing, but they didn't have antibiotics so, as long as there was no unfamiliar disease, these high concentrations of the real Romans were quite luxuriant. But then Trajan went to conquer Parthia. He didn't, but when the Army came back, it brought a plague from the East that devastated urban Rome. Who died? The Romans. The slaves were out in the fields (Roman agriculture was like the American south. Native-born freemen could not compete with slave labor in agriculture, and the Roman farmer was gone from the scene almost completely by the 2nd Century AD. He was in the cities, when the plagues hit and probably killed a third of the Empire.

Of course, plague is worse in urban areas than rural ones, because in urban areas, people are concentrated, and though there were sewers in the better parts of town, there was still garbage, and still the concentrations of people that catch epidemics...epidemics in which the children, especially, die.

So, Rome and Ostia and Aquilea and Neapolis, etc., were devastated. The slaves in the countryside may have had a better survival rate, but slaves are never very fecund. Of course the GERMANS, and the SCYTHS, etc., were rural tribes and not much affected by the plague. By the Roman hollowing out, the balance of power shifted, bringing more pressure on the borders, to which Rome had to respond by the truly massive military reforms of Diocletian, which saved the Empire by essentially making everyone a citizen of a police state. It also froze people in their professions, practically doubled the size of the armies, and by natural necessity, doubled the tax burden...on a population base diminished by between a third and a half.

And thus began the death spiral from which there was no recovery. Plantation slavery, made possible only by the imperial conquests (the Republic had slaves, but not in the volumes that the Empire did), undermined the agricultural economy...and there WAS NO OTHER economy of note in those days. It caused an inner population migration of Romans, to the cities. Natural disaster decimated the Romans. And the military exigencies of a depopulated Rome facing barbarians who were not similarly decimated resulted in an economic burden so crippling that the economy and birth rate never recovered.

This is a familiar pattern. But THE reason Rome fell was the insurmountable problem of a DECLINING population of Romans faced with a GROWING population of barbarians. Demography is destiny. Always has been, always will be.
Why? Because the future belongs to the people living in it, and when people don't have offspring, or don't have many, they aren't living in it.

From the point of view of a German, Rome had great wealth and material goods, but no German wanted to live as a slave, which is what the Imperial system of Diocletian effectively made of everyone within the Empire. Germans were freer than Romans, and though they were perfectly willing to adopt various Roman techniques, the only aspect of Roman law that the Germans were willing to accept was in the guise of the Church.

In this assessment, I would say that the Germans were right. There are different ways to measure civilization. From the point of view of overall societal wealth, that was a Roman province. But if personal freedom of action is your gig, you wanted to be a German, not a Roman.

Rome fell because of Roman economic choices that, coupled with inevitable natural disasters (epidemics) destroyed the demographic base of the Empire.

I know why they painted their chariots red. The red ones go faster.

"Because the future belongs to the people living in it, and when people don't have offspring, or don't have many, they aren't living in it."

VERY TRUE!! And ABORTION is the DEATH of our future.

Yeah, but they attracted speed cops.

Welsh are genetically similar to Basque people. The Welsh were in the British Islands before the Celts, Romans, and Anglos came.


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