If hydrocarbons are renewable- then is "Peak Oil" a fraud?

321 Energy ^ | December 5, 2006 | Joel Bainerman

[Lurker]

Thanks for the information.

L

[aruanan]

Unbeknownst to Westerners, there have actually been for quite some time now two competing theories concerning the origins of petroleum. One theory claims that oil is an organic 'fossil fuel' deposited in finite quantities near the planet's surface. The other theory claims that oil is continuously generated by natural processes in the Earth's magma.

Sheesh. If this guy had really read Gold's book, he wouldn't have made so many errors in such a short space. Oil, regardless of its origin, is still organic because it's a carbon containing compound. The other theory doesn't claim a continuous generation of petroleum (as though it's infinite in quantity compared to the previously posited "finite quantities" of "fossil fuel"). It claims a finite amount of premordial methane in the earth is continuously percolating to the surface and being transformed by pressure and temperature differentials along the way into longer chained hydrocarbons. Some of it also makes it all the way to the surface as methane (the source of methane hydrates). It doesn't claim that the methane is coming from magma.

Too bad Thomas Gold's website was taken down after his death. There was a lot of interesting stuff there. I think I saved it all before then. Let me see what I can find.

[Lurker]

Maybe I could paint it yellow and drive around wearing a helmet.

L

[SlowBoat407]

What in the world gave that first man an idea that he could get "gasoline" out of oil in the first place? What would have given him that idea?

IIRC, gasoline and other items that are now valuable to us were actually waste products for years as crude oil that was easily accessible was heated to produce tar and pitch. Granted, the amount that was discarded then was miniscule compared to what we burn in a day now, but there was a time when perfectly good gasoline was considered useless.

[aruanan]

It’s strange that any of us ever believed that (dinosaur/oil) fantasy in the first place. I guess they fed it to us early enough in school when most of us never asked too many questions. How would have the “remains” of those dinosaurs gotten so deeply into the earth where the oil is now?

Oil is believed to be "organic" because it rotates light slightly to the left and because it contains molecules that are believed to be biogenic. Gold maintained that the levorotatory nature of petroleum is due to contamination of these molecules that do, indeed, come from a biological origin, from microbes that live on the petroleum and/or methane at depth underground. He showed this through the drilling in Sweden in the meteorite crater that yielded petroleum that was laden with magnetite crystals of a probable biological origin.

[the invisib1e hand]

about time this started getting some exposure.

Believe it or not, it never occurred to me *duh!* until I heard Rush Limbaugh mention in passing that "scientists argue that oil is still being made..."

The light went on. Of course it is. Why not? And who knows but that it's being made more and faster by some mechanism of critical mass way down in the bowels of the earth.

[the invisib1e hand]

Economies, dynasties, empires once rose and fell on their access to...salt. Now we throw it over our shoulder as a gag.

Someday, perhaps oil...

[the invisib1e hand]

If hydrocarbons are renewable- then is "Peak Oil" a fraud?

Not at all. The peak of oil prices is probably right around here on the timeline somewhere.

[Smokin' Joe]

I am not familliar with Russian exploration strategies. The only examples I know of were here in the US, and the only 'production' came from the investor's pockets.

I do know of situations where horizontal drilling in anisotropic reservoirs has found additional untapped production here in the US, but that is just tapping a stratigraphically isolated reservoir pool.

If, however, the Russians are drilling heavily faulted or fractured areas or along deep crustal lineament trends, (which logically would be the ideal for the model), those areas also are ideal for migration of petroleum from 'conventionally' sourced reservoirs to strata under production.

SOme of the exploration in the Williston Basin in the US which was not along the Nesson Anticline occurred at the intersection of major crustal lineaments.

The fracturing associated with such zones has additional beneficial effects on the reservoir (Carbonates: Limestone and Dolomite):

1 it provides a pathway for fluids high in magnesium to migrate, improving existing carbonate petrofabrics by dolomitization, resulting in higher porosity and permeability, and

2: it provides primary pathways for vertical and lateral oil migration and permeability enhancement within the reservoir along fracture ('joint') sets. Many fields exist at the intersection of the lineament trends, though I know of none of these which are 'regenerating'.

Any enhanced or additional production is the result of refinements in production and drilling technology, or the discovery of previously 'missed' oil in old fields.

That does not prove regeneration, only that there is more oil at depth, which likely comes from biogenic sources as well.

Without familliarity with the Geology of the Russian fields, I cannot completely discount that there might appear to be production from basement (crystalline igneous or metamorphic rock), nor can I address that appearance--or possible more conventional causes thereof.

[Strategerist]

about time this started getting some exposure.

It's vastly OVEREXPOSED on Free Republic. It's taken seriously by almost no competent Petroleum Geologists, and the claims are supported by a "bodyguard of lies" (that the biogenic theory claims oil comes from "dinosaurs", that "oil fields all over the world are mysteriously replenishing themselves" etc.)

And people continue to find oil where the biogenic guys say they will, and not find it where the abiogenic guys say they will.

[Strategerist]

I am not familliar with Russian exploration strategies. The only examples I know of were here in the US, and the only 'production' came from the investor's pockets.

You obviously actually know something about oil drilling and exploration...

Which means you'll be completely ignored on this thread. the FR abiogenic oil fanatics are basically allergic to anyone who has the foggiest idea of what they're talking about.

[Strategerist]

I first read about this in 1991. The geologist who pioneered the theory was far more accurate in picking where oil deposits would be based upon his assumptions than fossil-fuel experts were.

Sigh. Yet another one of the "big lies."

[Smokin' Joe]

I agree with that, but I also think there is a scarcity of honesty concerning from where oil is actually derived.

I have described several hundred miles of well samples in my career.

All the oil I know of has come out of holes in the ground, and all the formations I have found it in are sedimentary rock or fractured volcanic rocks which overlay the sedimentary rock the oil is believed to have come from.

If there are any 'great secrets' they have not been disclosed at my pay grade, and I keep finding oil in conventional places.

"logistics and economics" and environmental-case politics and greed.

It is not 'greedy' to make a 10% profit, especially when the lion's share will go back into finding more of what you are selling. Coca Cola made twice that margin on stuff to corrode your teeth.

[Strategerist]

“In his book, The Deep Hot Biosphere: The Myth of Fossil Fuels, he explains that dinosaurs and plants and the fossils from those living beings are not the origin of oil and natural gas, but rather generated from a chemical substance in the crust of the Earth.

It’s strange that any of us ever believed that (dinosaur/oil) fantasy in the first place. I guess they fed it to us early enough in school when most of us never asked too many questions. How would have the “remains” of those dinosaurs gotten so deeply into the earth where the oil is now?

I have to point for about the 50th time that Jerome Corsi, author of above book, is either a deliberate liar or an abject moron.

There has never, ever, EVER been a scientific theory that oil comes from dead dinosaurs.

And no, you didn't learn that oil comes from dead dinosaurs in school; you learned that from some humorous and cute oil company commercials, in combination with the average largely uneducated member of the public thinking the ONLY fossils are "dinosaurs" because of the overwhelming focus on and interest in dinosaurs.

So Corsi wrote an entire book attacking a theory that doesn't exist.

Oil, of course, comes from dead marine and lacustrine plankton - largely algae and diatoms. The composition of petroleum deposits exactly matches that of this dead plankton. There are no "dinosaurs" in oil at all, and no land plants - those form coal, obviously.

And basically you need to take Geology 101 from somewhere if you can't figure out how ocean or lake bottom sediments can get deeply buried over time.

[beyond the sea]

gasoline and other items that are now valuable to us were actually waste products for years as crude oil that was easily accessible was heated to produce tar and pitch

I found this this morning:

****

http://www.greatachievements.org/?id=3675

When retired railroad conductor Edwin Drake struck oil in 1859 in Titusville, Pennsylvania, he touched off the modern oil industry. For the next 40 years the primary interest in oil was as a source of kerosene, used for lighting lamps. Then came the automobile and the realization that the internal combustion engine ran best on gasoline, a byproduct of the process of extracting kerosene from crude oil. As the demand grew for gasoline to power not only cars but also internal combustion engines of all kinds, chemical engineers honing their refining techniques discovered a host of useful byproducts of crude—and the petrochemical industry was born. Oil had truly become black gold.

[Tvrm]

In reality if there is a limit in the amount of oil out there then our policy has been to use everyone elses oil and hold on to our supply / reserves / exploration until as late a possible. Seems reasonable to me (the terrorist aspect of it all has change the situation but....)

[beyond the sea]

Let me see what I can find.

Let ME see what you can find .......... please!!!!

;-)

Mr. Gold was a very wise man.

[Strategerist]

One of the big problems, which I've realized over time, is that people have equated immediate "peak oil" belief with believing in "biogenic oil" for some strange reason.

One can quite happily both believe in the obvious reality of biogenic petroleum, and also believe that worldwide oil production isn't going to peak IMMEDIATELY and that there are still new petroleum deposits to find or exploit and better technologies to extract oil.

[beyond the sea]

Peak oil fits in neatly with the eco-terrorist lobby that claims we are running out of oil and need to give up our cars

And......... "Peak Oil" has been PROMOTED by the oil companies, it fits their profit needs quite well too.

A perfect storm..... of sorts.

[beyond the sea]

Thanks for that.